Most Impressive in Defeat?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

I'm curious if you have an explanation as to what basis Pletcher might have had for thinking this horse sulks from the whip?

He's only run twice. He comes within 0.13 seconds of breaking a track record at 150 year-old Saratoga in his debut. He overcomes a mind-boggling pace to win the Champagne in career start #2.

What are the chances that Havana was ever whipped in one of his morning workouts?

If he hadn't sulked after being repeatedly whipped at Barrett's -- do you think he might have ran his furlong in 9 seconds flat?

I don't mind so much that he wasn't whipped, and I'm not sure it had any impact on the outcome ... it's just the frustration of seeing jockeys and trainers trying to impose their will and being cute when they don't need to.

Perhaps they had an incident in the morning? Horses that spook or are nervous are more likely to react negatively to the whip. Just look at what happened to the Chad Brown horse in Canada. Dont forget that horses with 2 starts are still very green

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Perhaps they had an incident in the morning? Horses that spook or are nervous are more likely to react negatively to the whip. Just look at what happened to the Chad Brown horse in Canada. Dont forget that horses with 2 starts are still very green

As easy as Pletcher works him, you think this horse was being whipped in morning workouts?

It's hard to imagine a horse that fast getting whipped in his typical 4 furlong in 49 and change workouts he'd always go in, but who knows, I didn't see them, I guess.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

As easy as Pletcher works him, you think this horse was being whipped in morning workouts?

It's hard to imagine a horse that fast getting whipped in his typical 4 furlong in 49 and change workouts he'd always go in, but who knows, I didn't see them, I guess.

Pletcher doesn't do anything for no reason. I'm sure that at some point the horse has been hit with the whip and had an adverse reaction to it. A workout or race isnt necessarily the only time a horse would get hit with the whip. Especially if they are a bad actor or are aggressive towards other horses in the morning.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Pletcher doesn't do anything for no reason. I'm sure that at some point the horse has been hit with the whip and had an adverse reaction to it. A workout or race isnt necessarily the only time a horse would get hit with the whip. Especially if they are a bad actor or are aggressive towards other horses in the morning.

He did cleverly add blinkers on Palace Malice in the Kentucky Derby, because the rider said he lost focus in deep stretch of the Blue Grass.

He did cleverly ride Chantal Sutherland on his rabbit Bishop Court Hill in the Jockey Club Gold Cup ... and proceeded to see her go out and duel stablemate Flower Alley head-to-head on a brutal pace, melting it down for Borrego to win like Damascus. Flower Alley way up the track.

It is hard to question him though. I'm sure we would have had another Woodbine incident if Stevens hit him once. Glad that tragedy was averted.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

It is hard to question him though. I'm sure we would have had another Woodbine incident if Stevens hit him once. Glad that tragedy was averted.

Come on, how can he be questioned after yet another stellar performance on the biggest stage?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Come on, how can he be questioned after yet another stellar performance on the biggest stage?

How'd you do?

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

How'd you do?

I don't train any horses.

It was a joke. I don't make any secret that I'm no fan of Todd Pletcher. Is that not allowed on the internet?

[Jay Frederick]

I think way more is being made out of this than should be. I understand the general point of wanting to know as much as possible, but I can see a scenario where a rider doesn't listen to the trainer and whips anyway. Or where a jockey knows not to whip because the horse doesn't like it, but still carries the whip in order to flash it to the horse to keep it together late.

For example, Mucho Macho Man was never hit with the whip in the Classic either, because Kathy Ritvo told Gary Stevens he doesn't like it and Stevens observed this watching his prior races. Stevens flashed the whip to Mucho Macho Man through the lane, but never hit him.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

He did cleverly add blinkers on Palace Malice in the Kentucky Derby, because the rider said he lost focus in deep stretch of the Blue Grass.

He did cleverly ride Chantal Sutherland on his rabbit Bishop Court Hill in the Jockey Club Gold Cup ... and proceeded to see her go out and duel stablemate Flower Alley head-to-head on a brutal pace, melting it down for Borrego to win like Damascus. Flower Alley way up the track.

It is hard to question him though. I'm sure we would have had another Woodbine incident if Stevens hit him once. Glad that tragedy was averted.

It is hard to believe that I have to defend Todd Pletcher as a competent trainer and I'm pretty sure he isnt infallible but I'd bet that there was a pretty valid reason why he didnt want Stevens to whip the horse. And we dont even know if that is what he said. Perhaps he said to Stevens that the horse doesnt like the whip as in the charts in his first race it says the horse was just shown the whip. Without knowing the circumstances or even what was said you seemed to have jumped to a conclusion.

[Jay Frederick]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Pletcher doesn't do anything for no reason. I'm sure that at some point the horse has been hit with the whip and had an adverse reaction to it. A workout or race isnt necessarily the only time a horse would get hit with the whip. Especially if they are a bad actor or are aggressive towards other horses in the morning.

If you watch a replay of the Champagne, the horse ducks in and is swishing his tail all around when he was whipped. The final 200 yards or so when he is hand ridden, he was not swishing his tail.

I wonder if this is why Pletcher didn't want him hit. I don't think he would have held on anyway.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Jay Frederick

If you watch a replay of the Champagne, the horse ducks in and is swishing his tail all around when he was whipped. The final 200 yards or so when he is hand ridden, he was not swishing his tail.

I wonder if this is why Pletcher didn't want him hit. I don't think he would have held on anyway.

For the record, I'm not questioning his instruction one bit, and certainly not saying he would have won. I just think it is something the bettors should know ahead of time, just like the rider did...nothing more.

I think any reasonable handicapper could envision a scenario where Havana was going to get a wide trip and be tiring down the lane. Knowing a whip wasn't going to be used could have made a difference.

[Jay Frederick]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

For the record, I'm not questioning his instruction one bit, and certainly not saying he would have won. I just think it is something the bettors should know ahead of time, just like the rider did...nothing more.

I think any reasonable handicapper could envision a scenario where Havana was going to get a wide trip and be tiring down the lane. Knowing a whip wasn't going to be used could have made a difference.

Would that dissuade you from betting a horse if you knew they were not going to be whipped?

I know we are told when a rider doesn't carry a whip and it's never even crossed my mind to change my opinion on the horse because of this.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Jay Frederick

Would that dissuade you from betting a horse if you knew they were not going to be whipped?

I know we are told when a rider doesn't carry a whip and it's never even crossed my mind to change my opinion on the horse because of this.

I guess it depends on the situation. In a huge, competitive field, it very well might. Usually when horses aren't carrying a whip it isn't the first time so there is a history there. I was pretty tough to imagine a scenario where Havana wouldn't have to be ridden hard down the lane from the 13 post or whatever it was, and that generally comes with the expectation of some whipping.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Jay Frederick

If you watch a replay of the Champagne, the horse ducks in and is swishing his tail all around when he was whipped. The final 200 yards or so when he is hand ridden, he was not swishing his tail.

I wonder if this is why Pletcher didn't want him hit. I don't think he would have held on anyway.

Without knowing anything else about the horse that would seem to be the logical reason.