Zito's barn isolated as precaution/herpes

Originally Posted by oracle80

You are right, Kycherub used that exact same language about Nick.
I forget that this stench is actually Cherub. Imagine a guy who owns one cheap plug criticizing and waxing poetic about what he feels will be the decline of the one games true greats? As if anyone actually gives him any credibility in these topics?
This is the same clown who said he was by Gorella's barn after her last race and that I was a fool for saying she would bounce hard off the race, he said she looked great, took nothing out of her, blah blah blah. She bounced like a ping pong ball and proved once again what Euro knows about racing you could write on the back of a ****ing postage stamp.
Stick to those plugs ok Cherub? Don't get out of your league bashing a guy like Nick.

I like Nick, I really do. He is a good man and a great trainer. But all great trainers will start to decline a little. I think that the time for Nick is now or right around the corner. I dont think he will have an effect on TC races like he was did, I think he will do very well in NY but year after year I think you will see him slow down. Now let me ask you this....why is so wrong with me having an opinion.

I dont think Gorella bounced at all. She lost to males. She was wide and lost. I dont think that it was a bounce. Where you at her barn? Nope..I was and I said she looked great and that the race didnt take anything out of her. I dont think I ever said she wouldnt bounce.

Originally Posted by eurobounce

I like Nick, I really do. He is a good man and a great trainer. But all great trainers will start to decline a little. I think that the time for Nick is now or right around the corner. I dont think he will have an effect on TC races like he was did, I think he will do very well in NY but year after year I think you will see him slow down. Now let me ask you this....why is so wrong with me having an opinion.

I dont think Gorella bounced at all. She lost to males. She was wide and lost. I dont think that it was a bounce. Where you at her bard? Nope..I was and I said she looked great and that the race didnt take anything out of her. I dont think I ever said she wouldnt bounce.

The race obvioiusly sapped her, and you obviously don't know Nick well. I talk to his brother just about every day. He'd slap you so hard if you ever said that around him, that you wouldn't wake up for months assuming you ever did.

Originally Posted by oracle80

The race obvioiusly sapped her, and you obviously don't know Nick well. I talk to his brother just about every day. He'd slap you so hard if you ever said that around him, that you wouldn't wake up for months assuming you ever did.

I dont care what Nick's brother says or does. This is my opinion. Let me hear your opinion on how Nick will do this year and in the TC races?

Originally Posted by eurobounce

I dont care what Nick's brother says or does. This is my opinion. Let me hear your opinion on how Nick will do this year and in the TC races?

Let me assure you of one thing, if you said something to that affect around Nick's brother, you'd most CERTAINLY care a whole lot in a hurry. The odds of that are 1-9.

Originally Posted by oracle80

Let me assure you of one thing, if you said something to that affect around Nick's brother, you'd most CERTAINLY care a whole lot in a hurry. The odds of that are 1-9.

Again, I dont care what or wouldnt happen. Why does it matter. It doesnt. You have yet to give me a prediction on how Zito will do in 2007? Are you man enough to give me your prediction.

2005 - $8mm plus in earnings.
2006 - $4mm plus in earnings.

Earnings cut in half from 05-06. That is a sharp decline. I predict he will be around $4mm - $5mm for the next 5 years or now. He will have np TC winners. Then he will go to $2mm-$4mm in earnings. This is my prediction. What is yours?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by eurobounce

Again, I dont care what or wouldnt happen. Why does it matter. It doesnt. You have yet to give me a prediction on how Zito will do in 2007? Are you man enough to give me your prediction.

2005 - $8mm plus in earnings.
2006 - $4mm plus in earnings.

Earnings cut in half from 05-06. That is a sharp decline. I predict he will be around $4mm - $5mm for the next 5 years or now. He will have np TC winners. Then he will go to $2mm-$4mm in earnings. This is my prediction. What is yours?

I would guess that he is doing quite well and doen't give a damn what anyone really thinks

[paisjpq]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I would guess that he is doing quite well and doen't give a damn what anyone really thinks

i'd say that is a pretty good guess

Originally Posted by paisjpq

i'd say that is a pretty good guess

Real good guess, but this isnt about what Nick thinks. It is what I think. There is a difference there.

[Cannon Shell]

Trainers dont decline, their stock does.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Trainers dont decline, their stock does.

Well that is a philosophical debate. Does the stock decline because owners dont have the confidence in them or does the stock decline because of increased competition. I think it is two fold. If you are winning, then people will continue to send you their horses. If you dont...well they wont. But you also have increase pressure from younger trainers.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by eurobounce

Well that is a philosophical debate. Does the stock decline because owners dont have the confidence in them or does the stock decline because of increased competition. I think it is two fold. If you are winning, then people will continue to send you their horses. If you dont...well they wont. But you also have increase pressure from younger trainers.

Older trainers sometimes outlive their main owners and dont really care to go out and hustle new guys.
Charlie Whittingham and Allen Jerkens are proof that age is not a disadvantage in training.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by eurobounce

Well that is a philosophical debate. Does the stock decline because owners dont have the confidence in them or does the stock decline because of increased competition. I think it is two fold. If you are winning, then people will continue to send you their horses. If you dont...well they wont. But you also have increase pressure from younger trainers.

Look you are certainly allowed your opinion but Cannon Shell's point seems right to me. I can't believe you are suggesting Nick, or anyone, forgets how to train. Try and imagine how hard it is to get owners, keep owners, and keep them happy. To be perfectly honest, and I realize and admit I'm biased, I think it's very impressive just how many horses Nick continues to get in this world of " let's give 'em to Pletcher ". He has kept a lot of tough owners happy for a long time, through thick and thin, so he must be CONTINUING to do a lot more right than wrong.

I don't care who you are, you are only as good as your horses, and as long as Nick keeps getting decent horses I imagine he will keep performing at a very high level.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Look you are certainly allowed your opinion but Cannon Shell's point seems right to me. I can't believe you are suggesting Nick, or anyone, forgets how to train. Try and imagine how hard it is to get owners, keep owners, and keep them happy. To be perfectly honest, and I realize and admit I'm biased, I think it's very impressive just how many horses Nick continues to get in this world of " let's give 'em to Pletcher ". He has kept a lot of tough owners happy for a long time, through thick and thin, so he must be CONTINUING to do a lot more right than wrong.

I don't care who you are, you are only as good as your horses, and as long as Nick keeps getting decent horses I imagine he will keep performing at a very high level.

I understand Cannons point. But if you are winning then will get good stock. Nick has done a unbelievable job over the years. But you cant ignore a 50% decline in earnings. At some point in time a trainer loses a little something. Just like a coach loses a little something at the end of his/her career. I think Nick is getting up there in age and I think he will slowly decline in earnings and TC races. That is all.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by eurobounce

I understand Cannons point. But if you are winning then will get good stock. Nick has done a unbelievable job over the years. But you cant ignore a 50% decline in earnings. At some point in time a trainer loses a little something. Just like a coach loses a little something at the end of his/her career. I think Nick is getting up there in age and I think he will slowly decline in earnings and TC races. That is all.

He aint that old.

I think you should maybe take a look at every year he has trained. I would guess like most trainers he has had some down years....not that this year has been a down year. He won the Spring Meet at Keeneland, probably the second biggest meet of the year, for God's sake. How can someone do THAT and be in decline?

Believe me, I don't think you are trying to start a fight, but are just expressing an opinion.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

He aint that old.

I think you should maybe take a look at every year he has trained. I would guess like most trainers he has had some down years....not that this year has been a down year. He won the Spring Meet at Keeneland, probably the second biggest meet of the year, for God's sake. How can someone do THAT and be in decline?

Believe me, I don't think you are trying to start a fight, but are just expressing an opinion.

No fights, just an opinion is all. Only time will tell my friends.

[blackthroatedwind]

Geez, you had me feeling bad for Nick, then I saw he has three wins and two seconds the last two days at Churchill.

He needs to retire.

[paisjpq]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Geez, you had me feeling bad for Nick, then I saw he has three wins and two seconds the last two days at Churchill.

He needs to retire.

yup stick a fork in him...he's done.

[ELA]

Originally Posted by eurobounce

I understand Cannons point. But if you are winning then will get good stock. Nick has done a unbelievable job over the years. But you cant ignore a 50% decline in earnings. At some point in time a trainer loses a little something. Just like a coach loses a little something at the end of his/her career. I think Nick is getting up there in age and I think he will slowly decline in earnings and TC races. That is all.

I don't think anyone here is questioning Nick Zito as a trainer. I think what is at debate here is this 50% decline in earnings and his future. I think the decline in earnings is due to a variety of things, however I don't think it is reflective of a "bad year" so to speak. Last year he had multiple horses on the Derby trail, won and placed in preps, etc., and had horses for spots that might not have truly been the norm. Interestingly enough, if this same discussion took place a few years ago, I for one would have said Nick was on an upswing. The complexion of his barn was changing.

If you look at history and the complexion of Nick's barn, his babies were either homebreds (or pinhooks that were buybacks) or in the $75k to $250k price range. He certainly was not in the Pletcher, Baffert or Lukas price range. Now the last couple of years certain owners started stepping up to bigger price ranges. That can change the complexion of a barn.

From being in this business for quite some time, I have seen an interesting dynamic develop over time. Often, you see owners -- sometimes new, sometimes established -- gravitate to trainers who they might consider a constituent. Of course it's not always true.

Be that as it may, the Pletcher phenomenon without question has an impact on competition and other trainers, the size and complexion of their barns, etc. I think trainers today will find that new skills are needed -- not limited to training horses, but in the area of "client management" and dealing with people. I don't think trainers get wealthy on their daily rate so there is a different mindset needed.

I've always said -- never count out Nick Zito. IMO he hasn't lost a thing, a step, nothing.

Eric

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Geez, you had me feeling bad for Nick, then I saw he has three wins and two seconds the last two days at Churchill.

He needs to retire.

I never said he was done...I am saying now is the time that his decline begins.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by eurobounce

I never said he was done...I am saying now is the time that his decline begins.

Sadly I think we're all declining.