Voter ID laws: Everyone has an ID, right? Nope

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Clip-Clop

Have you ever read the Bill of Rights?

Yes. You? Because you made the following statement, which clearly is against our Constitution and Bill of Rights, and our founding principles:

That said it is the far end of both spectrum that have ruined this system and those are the ones I would like be to be eliminated from the process or educated back in.

Kinda dictator-like. Your fellow citizens don't have to meet your requirements to be able to vote. They only have to be citizens of this country. You - or I - may hate what they believe, or how they vote. Too bad. We all get to vote.

[Clip-Clop]

Originally Posted by Riot

Yes. You? Because you made the following statement, which clearly is against our Constitution and Bill of Rights, and our founding principles:



Kinda dictator-like. Your fellow citizens don't have to meet your requirements to be able to vote. They only have to be citizens of this country. You - or I - may hate what they believe, or how they vote. Too bad. We all get to vote.

Which amendment?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Clip-Clop

Which amendment?

I didn't say amendment. Keep up.

[Clip-Clop]

Originally Posted by Riot

I didn't say amendment. Keep up.

Huh, you keep asserting that the framers made sure that all votes counted the same when the exact opposite is true.
I assumed you must have read this somewhere so I was curious if you interpreted the Bill of Rights differently than I did.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Clip-Clop

Huh, you keep asserting that the framers made sure that all votes counted the same when the exact opposite is true.
I assumed you must have read this somewhere so I was curious if you interpreted the Bill of Rights differently than I did.

yeah, originally all citizens didn't have the right to vote. the framers didn't think everyone should be able to.
explains why there had to be amendments made to the constitution. and those amendments came looong after the framers had all shuffled off this mortal coil.


an excerpt from an article i found:

Some Americans hoped the Constitution would clarify, unify, and perhaps expand voting rights nationally. It did not. Hayden wrote: "Under the constitution, then, the breadth of the right to vote for both state and national elections was fixed by state law. And at the time of ratification, this meant that many people—including most women, African Americans, Native Americans and propertyless white men—could not vote."

By not addressing the suffrage issue more broadly, the Constitution's authors fostered a long-running battle over voting rights. This struggle lasted well into the twentieth century, forming a focal point for the civil rights and women's rights movements.

http://www.history.org/foundation/jo.../elections.cfm

[Clip-Clop]

Originally Posted by Danzig

yeah, originally all citizens didn't have the right to vote. the framers didn't think everyone should be able to.
explains why there had to be amendments made to the constitution. and those amendments came looong after the framers had all shuffled off this mortal coil.


an excerpt from an article i found:

Some Americans hoped the Constitution would clarify, unify, and perhaps expand voting rights nationally. It did not. Hayden wrote: "Under the constitution, then, the breadth of the right to vote for both state and national elections was fixed by state law. And at the time of ratification, this meant that many people—including most women, African Americans, Native Americans and propertyless white men—could not vote."

By not addressing the suffrage issue more broadly, the Constitution's authors fostered a long-running battle over voting rights. This struggle lasted well into the twentieth century, forming a focal point for the civil rights and women's rights movements.

http://www.history.org/foundation/jo.../elections.cfm

The electoral college system was conceived because the founders were afraid to give the full power of selection to the general public.
A correct assumption was made that people are suckers and could easily be fooled into electing someone completely unqualified.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Clip-Clop

The electoral college system was conceived because the founders were afraid to give the full power of selection to the general public.
A correct assumption was made that people are suckers and could easily be fooled into electing someone completely unqualified.

i think they came up with the EC as a way for states to choose the executive, rather than by popular vote. that way, a certain segment couldn't hold sway ( in theory) over the rest of the country. after all, the fed is supposed to be the umbrella under which the states work. yeah, that part of the experiment has lately turned into an abysmal failure.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Clip-Clop

Huh, you keep asserting that the framers made sure that all votes counted the same when the exact opposite is true.
I assumed you must have read this somewhere so I was curious if you interpreted the Bill of Rights differently than I did.

But we don't live by the 1700's version, do we? Our laws and constitutional amendments say all our citizens have the franchise to vote. Right? ALL our citizens.

[Clip-Clop]

Originally Posted by Riot

But we don't live by the 1700's version, do we? Our laws and constitutional amendments say all our citizens have the franchise to vote. Right? ALL our citizens.

Actually they give the reasons you cannot tell someone that they cannot vote. Age, race, sex etc.
Does say you need to be a citizen, proof of citizenship is the key.
How do you prove it without a verifiable form of identification?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Clip-Clop

Actually they give the reasons you cannot tell someone that they cannot vote. Age, race, sex etc.
Does say you need to be a citizen, proof of citizenship is the key.
How do you prove it without a verifiable form of identification?

you don't prove it. you take voters at their word. i mean, who would lie?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Clip-Clop

Actually they give the reasons you cannot tell someone that they cannot vote. Age, race, sex etc.
Does say you need to be a citizen, proof of citizenship is the key.
How do you prove it without a verifiable form of identification?

Look at your states current requirements to register to vote. Why do you want to eliminate some of those as invalid, making it more difficult for some to vote?

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Clip-Clop

Actually they give the reasons you cannot tell someone that they cannot vote. Age, race, sex etc.
Does say you need to be a citizen, proof of citizenship is the key.
How do you prove it without a verifiable form of identification?

I guess when I registered to vote at the DMV, I should have never showed them my ID, because it allowed me to be discriminated.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Riot

But we don't live by the 1700's version, do we? Our laws and constitutional amendments say all our citizens have the franchise to vote. Right? ALL our citizens.

nope, not all

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Clip-Clop

Huh, you keep asserting that the framers made sure that all votes counted the same when the exact opposite is true.
I assumed you must have read this somewhere so I was curious if you interpreted the Bill of Rights differently than I did.

lol, exactly. Not that it is right, but werent only male, white, land owners allowed to vote by our founding father's standards?

and then of course black people were only counted as 3/5 of a vote.

and women never voted until 1920. Poor people could NOT even vote in the 1960's until the poll tax was removed!!

Even in 2012... American citizens who have committed a felony are not allowed to vote.


now none of that stuff above is okay (except maybe not allowing felons).

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

lol, exactly. Not that it is right, but werent only male, white, land owners allowed to vote by our founding father's standards?

and then of course black people were only counted as 3/5 of a vote.

and women never voted until 1920. Poor people could NOT even vote in the 1960's until the poll tax was removed!!

Even in 2012... American citizens who have committed a felony are not allowed to vote.


now none of that stuff above is okay (except maybe not allowing felons).

blacks weren't counted as 3/5 of a vote.
originally, slaves were counted as 3/5 of a person in deciding population of a state. it was something the southern states forced thru, or else they wouldn't ratify the constitution, as that was the only way to keep an even keel in the house of representatives. they knew that northern populations were much higher, which would put them in a position of less say in congress. and of course that would affect the number of electoral votes as well.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Danzig

blacks weren't counted as 3/5 of a vote.
originally, slaves were counted as 3/5 of a person in deciding population of a state. it was something the southern states forced thru, or else they wouldn't ratify the constitution, as that was the only way to keep an even keel in the house of representatives. they knew that northern populations were much higher, which would put them in a position of less say in congress. and of course that would affect the number of electoral votes as well.

thats correct.. my bad

it was just male property owners.. people who had a financial interest in where the country was heading.

not that is is morally correct, but I understand where they were coming from, and its a big reason why I believe in term limits for Congress today.