Where's the Scat Daddy Thread?

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

..its just a shame to me that Bernie didn't fire his best shot and now we'll never really know how good he was...

For a horse you definitively spoke of as the virtual second coming this is quite an analysis of his performance. Not that Bernardini didn't run well, as he probably ran his best race, but a little " maybe I overrated him slightly " might be a bit more appropriate.

Ya know, the old " I wasn't wrong...the horse was " is not the road to success.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

For a horse you definitively spoke of as the virtual second coming this is quite an analysis of his performance. Not that Bernardini didn't run well, as he probably ran his best race, but a little " maybe I overrated him slightly " might be a bit more appropriate.

Ya know, the old " I wasn't wrong...the horse was " is not the road to success.

Hey Blackie... we agree on something! I, too, felt this was Bernardini's best effort to date... and he impressed me for the first time in losing. Very good 3 yo... not an all-time great.

Originally Posted by Balletto

Hey Blackie... we agree on something! I, too, felt this was Bernardini's best effort to date... and he impressed me for the first time in losing. Very good 3 yo... not an all-time great.

Its funny how this worked out. What I find ironic is that many folks had doubts about Ghostzapper and his ability to go a mile and a quarter. I was among them. What Ghostzapper did that day was mind boggling. It was the biggest display of raw speed and talent that I ever saw. I watched the race, believed what I saw and immediately declared him the best horse I ever saw run. I still feel that way now. I doubt I will see another like him anytime soon, if ever.
I didn't make excuses about anything, I just admitted that my doubts about his ability to go a true route were completely without basis.
In this case I guess the love for this horse(Bern) was very deep by many folks who loved him and I suspect they are still stunned and searching for reasons why he lost.
Perspective on situations is usually better after some time has past, the emotions dim and true analysis of the situation is easier to do. Maybe a year from now, after some time has gone by, we'd be able to revisit this situation again without the emotional components clouding the situation.

Start the 3-page long quarrels in 5..4..3...2...

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

Start the 3-page long quarrels in 5..4..3...2...

No quarrels. I think everyone agrees he's talented... one of the best 3 yo's in some time. Lets just keep it at that. Any other argument is now just speculatory. We'll never know.

Originally Posted by oracle80

Its funny how this worked out. What I find ironic is that many folks had doubts about Ghostzapper and his ability to go a mile and a quarter. I was among them. What Ghostzapper did that day was mind boggling. It was the biggest display of raw speed and talent that I ever saw. I watched the race, believed what I saw and immediately declared him the best horse I ever saw run. I still feel that way now. I doubt I will see another like him anytime soon, if ever.
I didn't make excuses about anything, I just admitted that my doubts about his ability to go a true route were completely without basis.
In this case I guess the love for this horse(Bern) was very deep by many folks who loved him and I suspect they are still stunned and searching for reasons why he lost.
Perspective on situations is usually better after some time has past, the emotions dim and true analysis of the situation is easier to do. Maybe a year from now, after some time has gone by, we'd be able to revisit this situation again without the emotional components clouding the situation.

I was never emotionally attached to this horse... maybe that's why he showed me more in defeat than he ever did in winning. I was never a member of his bandwagon and actually found the talk about him rather nauseating.

With that said, I truly was impressed with his BC effort and thought he made a very admirable move. In my mind, the loss doesnt tarnish him, but improves the lustre... but then again, I wasnt a hardcore fan.

I never thought of him as a superhorse... but one that still had to prove it... and he proved he was a top 3yo with a lot of talent. He proved he can be devastating to a field... but he also proved he's beatable and didnt deserve all the hype he got.

In my mind... great 3 yo... lots of talent... exciting horse... but it ends there.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by Balletto

Hey Blackie... we agree on something! I, too, felt this was Bernardini's best effort to date... and he impressed me for the first time in losing. Very good 3 yo... not an all-time great.

I definitely don't think it was his best effort to date, but he showed to me that he can compete against a huge field after being asked too soon IMO. It's incredible to me that Flower Alley got as much hype as he did last year for finishing 2nd in the classic as a 3 year old, but Bernardini hasn't gotten the same respect.

I originally thought that Bernardini had "quit" as he was passed by Invasor, but I've re-watched the classic a dozen times and come to the conclusion that the horse was either exhausted or just not handling the track very well. It's a shame that he won't be running again as I think that he would have improved as a 4 year old and we would have seen an extremely nice 4 year old. Oh well...

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

bern was all out and got beat ...hes a good horse who qot get beat by a fresher very nice horse who moved at the right time....there was no looking in the eye..javy didnt see him till he moved past..do i think if they raced in three weeks time who would win ..it would be bern....but invasor is a very nice horse who should get the credit and the cash...they had a game plan and it worked..

[SniperSB23]

Can't we get back to talking about how much Scat Daddy sucks?

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

Can't we get back to talking about how much Scat Daddy sucks?

He'll be off the triple crown trail by march. His two year old campaign was brutal.

Originally Posted by hoovesupsideyourhead

bern was all out and got beat ...hes a good horse who qot get beat by a fresher very nice horse who moved at the right time....there was no looking in the eye..javy didnt see him till he moved past..do i think if they raced in three weeks time who would win ..it would be bern....but invasor is a very nice horse who should get the credit and the cash...they had a game plan and it worked..

I couldn't disagree more.
Invasor's "cough" made it very hard to have Invasor ready to race. 3 months and a few days layoff is the longest layoff in the history of the BCC for a winner. Extremely hard for any horse to run that well off that kinda layoff. Fresh is one thing, but 3 months goes beyond fresh and edges into too much time off.
Bern got his perfect prep, and had no excuses not to be top notch.
If they raced again in a month all it would do would increase the margin of victory by Invasor as he would be totally fit and tight. Theres only so much you can simulate and do in the mornings, and he still managed to grab him easily.
No shame in running 2nd to a horse like that.

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

Originally Posted by oracle80

I couldn't disagree more.
Invasor's "cough" made it very hard to have Invasor ready to race. 3 months and a few days layoff is the longest layoff in the history of the BCC for a winner. Extremely hard for any horse to run that well off that kinda layoff. Fresh is one thing, but 3 months goes beyond fresh and edges into too much time off.
Bern got his perfect prep, and had no excuses not to be top notch.
If they raced again in a month all it would do would increase the margin of victory by Invasor as he would be totally fit and tight. Theres only so much you can simulate and do in the mornings, and he still managed to grab him easily.
No shame in running 2nd to a horse like that.

wrong...he looked very well in his stall on jcgc day..what about his race vs sun king not exactly a monster effort...

Originally Posted by hoovesupsideyourhead

wrong...he looked very well in his stall on jcgc day..what about his race vs sun king not exactly a monster effort...

Why is that? Because Sun King didn't go on? I've always said on here that I think that school of thought is completely invalid, not just in this case. You can't use races going forward to change an effort and its validity in the past. Sun King ran the race of his career that day and it was a corker. The fact that he didn't repeat it doesn't change what he did anymore than what Flower Alley did miserably this year changes his great race last year in the BCC.
Was Sun King great? No. But he showed flashes of greatness in his career and on Whitney Day ran the race of his life.

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

Originally Posted by hoovesupsideyourhead

wrong...he looked very well in his stall on jcgc day..what about his race vs sun king not exactly a monster effort...

well mike again your thinking that invasor was the better horse from the get go is a joke ..if you where in keirens shoes would you wait till the big prize and a larger field or take your shot at the jcgc..with 4 horses...again im listeneing...keep in mind you got your tips from the jiffy lube ...

[Pointg5]

Originally Posted by hoovesupsideyourhead

bern was all out and got beat ...hes a good horse who qot get beat by a fresher very nice horse who moved at the right time....there was no looking in the eye..javy didnt see him till he moved past..do i think if they raced in three weeks time who would win ..it would be bern....but invasor is a very nice horse who should get the credit and the cash...they had a game plan and it worked..

Kasept mentioned when he spoke to Matz about Round Pond that he ran her in the Beldame for seasoning, I think he said something like a race is the equivalent to 5 workouts...She wasn't cranked for the Beldame, but would get enough out of it to be ready for the BC...I believe if Invasior ran in the JCGC he would have won by more on Sat...That was a long layoff and to run like that is a credit to Mcglaughlin, he had Closing Arguement ready to run a great Derby with only two starts, so he's pretty good at doing that...Also, it's not like Bernardini was over run, his races were spaced and he was in training the whole time which is a credit to Albertrani and Bernardini being such a balanced horse, he could stay in training...I believe Bernardini ran his race, he wasn't good enough, no disgrace, he will win 3yo of the year...Some people won't admit(not you specifically), that they overvalued the horse, that's okay, maybe they'll learn or next time they make such projections we will know that they are probably not as good as they think they are...

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

Originally Posted by Pointg5

Kasept mentioned when he spoke to Matz about Round Pond that he ran her in the Beldame for seasoning, I think he said something like a race is the equivalent to 5 workouts...She wasn't cranked for the Beldame, but would get enough out of it to be ready for the BC...I believe if Invasior ran in the JCGC he would have won by more on Sat...That was a long layoff and to run like that is a credit to Mcglaughlin, he had Closing Arguement ready to run a great Derby with only two starts, so he's pretty good at doing that...Also, it's not like Bernardini was over run, his races were spaced and he was in training the whole time which is a credit to Albertrani and Bernardini being such a balanced horse, he could stay in training...I believe Bernardini ran his race, he wasn't good enough, no disgrace, he will win 3yo of the year...Some people won't admit(not you specifically), that they overvalued the horse, that's okay, maybe they'll learn or next time they make such projections we will know that they are probably not as good as they think they are...

you are correct...i wanted bern to win as a fan /as a gambler at even money no...

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

I definitely don't think it was his best effort to date, but he showed to me that he can compete against a huge field after being asked too soon IMO. It's incredible to me that Flower Alley got as much hype as he did last year for finishing 2nd in the classic as a 3 year old, but Bernardini hasn't gotten the same respect.

I originally thought that Bernardini had "quit" as he was passed by Invasor, but I've re-watched the classic a dozen times and come to the conclusion that the horse was either exhausted or just not handling the track very well. It's a shame that he won't be running again as I think that he would have improved as a 4 year old and we would have seen an extremely nice 4 year old. Oh well...

Flower ran a better race last year in the BCC than Bern did. No doubt about that in my mind. The fact that he didn't go on at age four doesn't change what he did at age three. YOu can't use his four year old year as a basis to change what he did in the Classic.
Bern beat up on bad or injured horses with no traffic in small fields and more importantly what I saw as very slow pace figures, and his two biggest victories came when his main rivals broke down or were injured. I will say that perhaps if he had a gut wrencher prior to the BC that he may not have run better than he did and perhaps had he been allowed to race at age 4, he would have joined the elite.
But I really didn't like the way he reacted when Invasor came to him, and I think he had a great trip getting first run at the speed while making a turn move that is usually a successful knockout punch in many situations.
Turns are hard on some horses to truly accelerate on, and usually if someone makes a big turn move the competition is screwed because they have to straighten away in the lane before they can get a run on the leader who has already assumed an advantage with both the lead and a full head of steam.
Invasor's ears flipped forward when he came to Bern, and he was having a ball out there.
Perhaps its his humble beginnings in South America, perhaps its his non flashy pedigree, perhaps its because his trainer hadn't been considered a big race trainer prior to this year, but for whatever reason people are finding it hard to accept that he won, and much more impressively than the winning margin would indicate.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by oracle80

Flower ran a better race last year in the BCC than Bern did. No doubt about that in my mind. The fact that he didn't go on at age four doesn't change what he did at age three. YOu can't use his four year old year as a basis to change what he did in the Classic.
Bern beat up on bad or injured horses with no traffic in small fields and more importantly what I saw as very slow pace figures, and his two biggest victories came when his main rivals broke down or were injured. I will say that perhaps if he had a gut wrencher prior to the BC that he may not have run better than he did and perhaps had he been allowed to race at age 4, he would have joined the elite.
But I really didn't like the way he reacted when Invasor came to him, and I think he had a great trip getting first run at the speed while making a turn move that is usually a successful knockout punch in many situations.
Turns are hard on some horses to truly accelerate on, and usually if someone makes a big turn move the competition is screwed because they have to straighten away in the lane before they can get a run on the leader who has already assumed an advantage with both the lead and a full head of steam.
Invasor's ears flipped forward when he came to Bern, and he was having a ball out there.
Perhaps its his humble beginnings in South America, perhaps its his non flashy pedigree, perhaps its because his trainer hadn't been considered a big race trainer prior to this year, but for whatever reason people are finding it hard to accept that he won, and much more impressively than the winning margin would indicate.

Mike, you know as well as I do that I liked Invasor better than Bernardini in the classic (as we discussed), but I won't take it away from Bernardini that he is a much better horse than I thought originally. Is he the greatest horse of all time? Of course not, but I do think he would have had a great shot of proving to be one of the top horses next year.

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

Mike, you know as well as I do that I liked Invasor better than Bernardini in the classic (as we discussed), but I won't take it away from Bernardini that he is a much better horse than I thought originally. Is he the greatest horse of all time? Of course not, but I do think he would have had a great shot of proving to be one of the top horses next year.

Agree with everything you just said. Hes better than I thought he was. He definitely would have been great at age four. But hes no Invasor.
Amazing that the longest layoff in BCC history by far preceding a win by a horse in the race gets so little mention. Fresh? Well in a sprint race where they only have to be fit enough to go 6f perhaps it could be construed as an advantage to have three months off.
But a mile and a quarter is still a mile and a quarter, and no way could Invasor have been as tight as he would have been had he not "coughed" prior to the JCGC. He was the one who was at the disadvantge, not Bern.

I think Scat Daddy came back to soon. I really believe you need to give at least 5 weeks inbetween starts with 2 year olds. I also think Scat Daddy ran a real good race. The winner went out and won by 10 lengths. To me, this race is a throw out race when each of the horses races again. I think Scat will continue to grow and fill out a little and will be fine. To me, the horse reminds me more of Pulpit than More Than Ready. But who knows.