Havre De Grace Retired

[Riot]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Please, just admit you overlooked the first part of the report and let's move on.

If you're too proud to put it in writing, a consistently observable head nod will be taken as a "yes" instead.

What nonsense. 1/5 isn't visibly lame. If you didn't know it before, you do now. You learned something. Possibly.

Kudos to a good barn for putting their hands on the horses daily and finding this. Some lower barns miss this type of thing.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Riot

What nonsense. 1/5 isn't visibly lame. If you didn't know it before, you do now. You learned something. Possibly.

Hey, I only pointed out that the report said Havre de Grace was "lame". Your words were "the mare was not lame". Are we to believe you, or Dr. L.R. Bramlage (you know, the one who actually examined her) on this one?

Nevertheless, I'll take the bait:

Not "visibly" lame? What sort of "lame" is it?

What's the definition of lameness? An alteration in a horse's gait. How is this recognized if not by sight? Perhaps by taste? Smell?

Anyways, enough beating around the bush. Your precious AAEP defines a grade 1 lameness as "difficult to observe; not consistently apparent". It does not say it is imperceptible. Never mind that the report also notes that the horse was greater than grade 1 when trotted on a circle to the right. Don't you think that was that deduced visually?

It's this distortion of facts when pressed that makes you lose credibility on here. Just because you have a piece of paper that others here don't, doesn't mean you can pull the wool over their eyes. You might have a PhD or a degree in veterinary medicine, but the only thing you tend to throw around here is a lot of BS.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Hey, I only pointed out that the report said Havre de Grace was "lame". Your words were "the mare was not lame". Are we to believe you, or Dr. L.R. Bramlage (you know, the one who actually examined her) on this one?

Nevertheless, I'll take the bait:

Not "visibly" lame? What sort of "lame" is it?

What's the definition of lameness? An alteration in a horse's gait. How is this recognized if not by sight? Perhaps by taste? Smell?

Anyways, enough beating around the bush. Your precious AAEP defines a grade 1 lameness as "difficult to observe; not consistently apparent". It does not say it is imperceptible. Never mind that the report also notes that the horse was greater than grade 1 when trotted on a circle to the right. Don't you think that was that deduced visually?

It's this distortion of facts when pressed that makes you lose credibility on here. Just because you have a piece of paper that others here don't, doesn't mean you can pull the wool over their eyes. You might have a PhD or a degree in veterinary medicine, but the only thing you tend to throw around here is a lot of BS.

Good lord, you're beyond absurd. You're well into self-embarrassment territory. Your attempt to snark at me has only revealed how ignorant you are of horses and lameness.

If you don't know about what the definitions of lameness are, perhaps you shouldn't arrogantly correct others who do?

There is no head nod - although I'm glad you know at least that lameness can have a head nod. We call that "junior vet student lame" - so lame that a 3rd year vet student - or an internet expert like yourself - could see it.

That happens when a lameness is graded 4 or above.

There is no "limping" at Grade 1, 2 or 3 lamenesses.

If you would like to speculate on how we professionals diagnose those low grade, non-limping lamenesses (yes, with flexion tests and circling and everything else) I'll be happy to show you sometime if you are ever in Lexington. Yes, it involves knowing more than just recognizing a limp.

And yes, we veterinarians use a specific lameness scale, of 0 - 5, with absolutely defined meanings, so when I read a report from another veterinarian - like Dr. Bramlage's report - I know exactly what he saw.

Unlike yourself, who is most obviously clueless.

My comment giving kudos to the barn, for finding a problem in a mare that was not visibly limping, and getting it diagnosed right away, stands.

You look like a fool declaring this mare "lame" and talking about a head nod with a grade of 1/5 and 1.5 flexion/circle. Why don't you apologize for being such a rude jerk about something you obviously know nothing about?

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Riot

Good lord, you're beyond absurd. You're well into self-embarrassment territory. Your attempt to snark at me has only revealed how ignorant you are of horses and lameness.

If you don't know about what the definitions of lameness are, perhaps you shouldn't arrogantly correct others who do?

There is no head nod - although I'm glad you know at least that lameness can have a head nod. We call that "junior vet student lame" - so lame that a 3rd year vet student - or an internet expert like yourself - could see it.

That happens when a lameness is graded 4 or above.

There is no "limping" at Grade 1, 2 or 3 lamenesses.

If you would like to speculate on how we professionals diagnose those low grade, non-limping lamenesses (yes, with flexion tests and circling and everything else) I'll be happy to show you sometime if you are ever in Lexington. Yes, it involves knowing more than just recognizing a limp.

And yes, we veterinarians use a specific lameness scale, of 0 - 5, with absolutely defined meanings, so when I read a report from another veterinarian - like Dr. Bramlage's report - I know exactly what he saw.

Unlike yourself, who is most obviously clueless.

My comment giving kudos to the barn, for finding a problem in a mare that was not visibly limping, and getting it diagnosed right away, stands.

You look like a fool declaring this mare "lame" and talking about a head nod with a grade of 1/5 and 1.5 flexion/circle. Why don't you apologize for being such a rude jerk about something you obviously know nothing about?

Do you realize that almost everyone on this forum, if not all people on here, think you are insane?

You should try rereading a thread that you post heavily in, say, maybe six months later and see some of the stuff you come up with.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Do you realize that almost everyone on this forum, if not all people on here, think you are insane?

You mean, except for the people on this forum that laugh at the predictable clique of idiots and self-acting tough guys who do nothing more than stroll through the threads going after other posters they don't like?

More insane than the predictable posters who drone on with unbelievable ignorance about lasix, and lameness in horses?

Or the normal people who like learning about horse things?

We're so glad you're here to patrol the threads

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Riot

You mean, except for the people on this forum that laugh at the predictable clique of idiots and self-acting tough guys who do nothing more than stroll through the threads going after other posters they don't like?

More insane than the predictable posters who drone on with unbelievable ignorance about lasix, and lameness in horses?

Or the normal people who like learning about horse things?

We're so glad you're here to patrol the threads

You and your beloved emoticons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhrC3UlI5cQ

The relevant part is from about the 1 minute 10 second part to about a minute and a half.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Riot

Good lord, you're beyond absurd. You're well into self-embarrassment territory. Your attempt to snark at me has only revealed how ignorant you are of horses and lameness.

Is this your version of Stuart Smalley's Daily Affirmations?

There is no head nod - although I'm glad you know at least that lameness can have a head nod. We call that "junior vet student lame" - so lame that a 3rd year vet student - or an internet expert like yourself - could see it.

But excuse you, as you digress, since I never mentioned a head nod in reference to Havre De Grace.

That happens when a lameness is graded 4 or above.

Who cares? The examining veterinarian noted a grade 1-1.5 lameness on his report.

There is no "limping" at Grade 1, 2 or 3 lamenesses.

I know that now. The horse smells bad and tastes funny.

If you would like to speculate on how we professionals diagnose those low grade, non-limping lamenesses (yes, with flexion tests and circling and everything else) I'll be happy to show you sometime if you are ever in Lexington. Yes, it involves knowing more than just recognizing a limp.

How are you gonna "show" me? It's not a visual thing. Don't worry, I'll stock up on some palate cleansers in preparation.

And yes, we veterinarians use a specific lameness scale, of 0 - 5, with absolutely defined meanings, so when I read a report from another veterinarian - like Dr. Bramlage's report - I know exactly what he saw.

But Dr. Bramlage said the mare was lame. You said she was not. Which is it?

You look like a fool declaring this mare "lame"...

I wonder what Dr. Bramlage looks like then...

Why don't you apologize for being such a rude jerk about something you obviously know nothing about?

Sure, as soon as you apologize to Dr. Bramlage for calling him a fool.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Is this your version of Stuart Smalley's Daily Affirmations?


But excuse you, as you digress, since I never mentioned a head nod in reference to Havre De Grace.


Who cares? The examining veterinarian noted a grade 1-1.5 lameness on his report.


I know that now. The horse smells bad and tastes funny.


How are you gonna "show" me? It's not a visual thing. Don't worry, I'll stock up on some palate cleansers in preparation.

But Dr. Bramlage said the mare was lame. You said she was not. Which is it?


I wonder what Dr. Bramlage looks like then...


Sure, as soon as you apologize to Dr. Bramlage for calling him a fool.

Poor Rollo ... no, Havre de Grace is not lame. She is not limping. There is no "lameness" when a lameness exam is rated 1/5. As you found out, when you quickly googled "horse lameness" to find out what I was talking about when I said 1/5 isn't visibly lame or limping.

I'm sorry that you are ignorant of veterinary medical charting, and you have confused the exam findings of " 1/5 lame" to mean she's lame, rather than a score of 1/5 on her lameness exam (you know, rather than "1/5 card ausc" for example)

Because you'll note that the diagnosis section doesn't include any lameness. Just a small technicality.

Good thing we have your internet expertise to correct the professionals! Even though you've made a fool of yourself. Perhaps you should have just gone away when I noted mildly to you that "1/5 isn't visibly limping"? Rather than you doubling down on something you now absolutely nothing about?

No, Rollo. The mare was not limping. I'm glad her trainer found this injury during routine inspection, before she went out on the track again. Some would not.

Now - at this point you started telling me that I was wrong and the mare was lame. If I were you, after all this, I'd just either apologize for being an azz, not being familiar with either lameness scales and what they mean or how to read the "examination" section of a medical report, or just possibly fade away in embarrassment.

I don't care that you don't like me. But when you attack me with your ignorance it's just ... sad. For you.

And I know Dr. Bramlage, I'll be sure and tell him you said hello next time I'm at R & R

[The Bid]

riot. next time u are at r n r tell them they charged me too much for a semen viability.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by The Bid

riot. next time u are at r n r tell them they charged me too much for a semen viability.

Your own, or a horses?



Sorry, couldn't resist ...

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Riot

Poor Rollo ... no, Havre de Grace is not lame. She is not limping. There is no "lameness" when a lameness exam is rated 1/5.

Pure insanity. What you are saying is that there is no lameness when the lameness is difficult to observe.

Actually, sounds like denial. And more talking in circles.

Because you'll note that the diagnosis section doesn't include any lameness. Just a small technicality.

Is a detectable lameness considered a "diagnosis" or a "clinical sign"? Maybe you can rally some 3rd year vet students to come to your aid on this one.

Just a small technicality.

And I know Dr. Bramlage, I'll be sure and tell him you said hello next time I'm at R & R

Do they receive mental patients at Rood and Riddle?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Pure insanity. What you are saying is that there is no lameness when the lameness is difficult to observe.

Yes, imagine that! Sometimes way of going, stride length, leg weighting, arc of limb movement, etc. changes, and there are positive signs on various movement or flexion tests, and yet the horse isn't "lame".

But you knew that