Kentucky's ongoing attempt to end racing in state proceeds..

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Danzig

you can bet your ass if they all had the potential of hemorraging during a game they'd get a shot!

no doubt. i also forgot we were debating the semantics between getting a pain killer injections or just swallowing a pill.. which apparently is much better than getting an injection!

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

no doubt. i also forgot we were debating the semantics between getting a pain killer injections or just swallowing a pill.. which apparently is much better than getting an injection!

The number taking pills before a game also isn't remotely close to 99%. What difference does it make anyway? You are talking about a rough, physical contact sport, not running.

It has already been stated in this thread that nasal strips are just as effective as Lasix, yet those so in favor of Lasix offer no real reason why it is better to use the drug.

We all know the reason...it enhances performance for bleeders and non-bleeders alike. Some just don't want to admit it.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

The number taking pills before a game also isn't remotely close to 99%. What difference does it make anyway? You are talking about a rough, physical contact sport, not running.

It has already been stated in this thread that nasal strips are just as effective as Lasix, yet those so in favor of Lasix offer no real reason why it is better to use the drug.

We all know the reason...it enhances performance for bleeders and non-bleeders alike. Some just don't want to admit it.

Except in post 273, but please - do continue trying very hard not to learn anything about EIPH and how lasix works, especially if it conflicts with your long-held assumptions. You simply choose to ignore what you don't care to hear.

[cmorioles]

Traditions? If tradition was important, all the horses wouldn't be getting Lasix now, would they? Surely we can get better than "tradition" and "they don't stick too good". Use both? Why, if both do the same thing, would you pay double? These answers are as lame as the statements from the pro ban side, maybe lamer.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Traditions? If tradition was important, all the horses wouldn't be getting Lasix now, would they? Surely we can get better than "tradition" and "they don't stick too good". Use both? Why, if both do the same thing, would you pay double? These answers are as lame as the statements from the pro ban side, maybe lamer.

Give me 3 valid, truthful, proven reasons to eliminate furosemide on race day.

[cmorioles]

1) You can get the same help from a nasal strip.
2) Many horses don't need it.
3) It enhances performance. You may not like the proof, but I have given plenty, and it is legitimate. I'm sure you haven't bothered to check any of it out, but that doesn't make it less true.

Now, why again is 1) not enough besides silly answers like "it is tradition to drug horses" and "those darn nasal strips fall off"?

Please don't avoid the question again, just say I don't know or I give up if you can't answer with something that a kindergartner would laugh off.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

1) You can get the same help from a nasal strip.

Nasal strips and lasix work in entirely different ways. Why do you think one is better than the other?

2) Many horses don't need it.

What percentage of horses don't need lasix?

3) It enhances performance. You may not like the proof, but I have given plenty, and it is legitimate. I'm sure you haven't bothered to check any of it out, but that doesn't make it less true.

Nope. Haven't read any furosemide research at all ...

Do tell me - how does lasix specifically enhance performance? What does it actually do to horses?

Now, why again is 1) not enough besides silly answers like "it is tradition to drug horses" and "those darn nasal strips fall off"?

Please don't avoid the question again, just say I don't know or I give up if you can't answer with something that a kindergartner would laugh off.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Traditions? If tradition was important, all the horses wouldn't be getting Lasix now, would they? Surely we can get better than "tradition" and "they don't stick too good". Use both? Why, if both do the same thing, would you pay double? These answers are as lame as the statements from the pro ban side, maybe lamer.

Dude they dont stick very well which means they dont necessarily work very effectively. At Lasixpalooza some research vet from Michigan state who is the foremost researcher into EIPH said that the most effective way to treat it is a combo of lasix and nasal strips. So I figured that i would try to get something out of those wasted 8 hours soooo.....I tried the nasal strip/lasix combination on a horse I had that was a pretty bad bleeder (I bought him for a ham sandwich because he was a pretty good hunter prospect and wanted to see if we could get the bleeding under control before reselling him). Of course the nasal strip fell half off (it was hot and humid), the horse bled after running pretty well and off to the pretty horsey people he went.

The point is that this is hardly an exact science, and for someone who supposedly doesnt care one way or another you make statements that kinda show you do seem to care. If it makes you happy I will admit for all trainers that we only use lasix because it makes our horses run faster, that bleeding is entirely overblown and the other 1000 or so things that are given to horses that everyone ignores have absolutely no effect on performance.

Anything to end this thread and the hundred emails it sends to my yahoo account...

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Dude they dont stick very well which means they dont necessarily work very effectively. At Lasixpalooza some research vet from Michigan state who is the foremost researcher into EIPH said that the most effective way to treat it is a combo of lasix and nasal strips. So I figured that i would try to get something out of those wasted 8 hours soooo.....I tried the nasal strip/lasix combination on a horse I had that was a pretty bad bleeder (I bought him for a ham sandwich because he was a pretty good hunter prospect and wanted to see if we could get the bleeding under control before reselling him). Of course the nasal strip fell half off (it was hot and humid), the horse bled after running pretty well and off to the pretty horsey people he went.

The point is that this is hardly an exact science, and for someone who supposedly doesnt care one way or another you make statements that kinda show you do seem to care. If it makes you happy I will admit for all trainers that we only use lasix because it makes our horses run faster, that bleeding is entirely overblown and the other 1000 or so things that are given to horses that everyone ignores have absolutely no effect on performance.

Anything to end this thread and the hundred emails it sends to my yahoo account...

Just playing devil's advocate. When the strips were popular, I don't remember seeing a bunch flopping in the wind, do you? Surely they could improve that part of it if the problem was bad.

Why aren't the "other things" caught or ratted out? I just don't get it. I want them gone too, but unless other trainers step up and talk, it isn't going to happen. Somebody on the backstretch has to know.

At least this way you get some email!

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Just playing devil's advocate. When the strips were popular, I don't remember seeing a bunch flopping in the wind, do you? Surely they could improve that part of it if the problem was bad.

Why aren't the "other things" caught or ratted out? I just don't get it. I want them gone too, but unless other trainers step up and talk, it isn't going to happen. Somebody on the backstretch has to know.

At least this way you get some email!

I never saw where they worked very well for anything. Like most fads people tried them for awhile and didn't see much difference in anything really. Now they kind of act as a negative sign especially if you are thinking of claiming something with a nasal strip figuring it either bleeds a lot or has a bad airway.

The problem with other trainers "ratting out" other trainers is that without something short of a picture of someone actually giving a horse a shot in the neck or milkshaking a horse it is mostly dismissed as jealousy. Which sometimes it probably is. Perhaps I havent been persistent enough in trying to explain that the "authorities" in most jurisdictions are woefully inept, tragically underfunded or both. At the risk of starting another tangent if the ivory tower crowd focued their energies towards racings farce of a police force the game might actually get a little "cleaner". Instead they worry only about that which they know which in itself is telling.