Kentucky's ongoing attempt to end racing in state proceeds..

[cloud_break]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

I love how these guys like Seth Hancock show up for a meeting like this and stump for "hay, oats and water" (the misnomer that it is). Last time I checked, he was using Pletcher as his trainer. So let me see, he's opposed to giving a horse a $20 Lasix shot on race day, but he has no problem having his horses with a trainer whose horses average four figure vet bills on a monthly basis. Can you say hypocrite?

In a hypothetical defense of "Seth Hancock", the only logical support of race day medication reform is from the breeding side of things. Perhaps its just laziness, but having the racing side weed out stallion prospects that are entirely med dependent could make sense to a guy invested in such horses. Banning lasix however probably does not qualify under those criteria.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cloud_break

In a hypothetical defense of "Seth Hancock", the only logical support of race day medication reform is from the breeding side of things. Perhaps its just laziness, but having the racing side weed out stallion prospects that are entirely med dependent could make sense to a guy invested in such horses. Banning lasix however probably does not qualify under those criteria.

I know of no horses who are "med dependent". It is completely made up bs. There are no medications that alter the genetic makeup of a stallion or mare or thier progeny. Perhaps if these people weren't in such a big hurry to get the horses off the track to breed (and protect their investment) perhaps they could sort themselves out a little better on the racetrack.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I know of no horses who are "med dependent". It is completely made up bs. There are no medications that alter the genetic makeup of a stallion or mare or thier progeny. Perhaps if these people weren't in such a big hurry to get the horses off the track to breed (and protect their investment) perhaps they could sort themselves out a little better on the racetrack.

That sounds like a contradiction. You say that no horses are "med dependent". If the horses don't need meds, then why give them meds?

With regards to genetics, there is strong evidence that bleeding is genetic.

"According to data presented at the Summit, bleeding is to some degree an inherited trait, and the more horses whose bleeding was controlled by Lasix go to the breeding shed, the more that trait will tend to appear in subsequent generation."
http://businessofracing.blogspot.com...o-be-done.html

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

That sounds like a contradiction. You say that no horses are "med dependent". If the horses don't need meds, then why give them meds?

With regards to genetics, there is strong evidence that bleeding is genetic.

"According to data presented at the Summit, bleeding is to some degree an inherited trait, and the more horses whose bleeding was controlled by Lasix go to the breeding shed, the more that trait will tend to appear in subsequent generation."
http://businessofracing.blogspot.com...o-be-done.html

from the drf article:

In large part, those studies have concluded that horses suffer from bleeding as a result of genetic conditions that evolved in the species millions of years ago and because of the vast volumes of blood pumped at high pressure through a horse's lungs during exercise. Other studies have concluded that furosemide has been proven to mitigate those effects and prevent long-term damage to lung tissue.


as for your query-horses given lasix don't have to have it to run, it's something they can run without. in that regard, they aren't dependent. however, the issue is bleeding, in some horses it can be significant. lasix prevents that. and as romans pointed out, they would have allowed it throughout training, just not on race days which is when he said 'they would need it most'. and as was pointed out, lasix can prevent long-term lung damage.

if ky wants to lead the way on meds, perhaps they should do more to go after the ones that enhance performance, rather than worrying about a drug that prevents bleeding and tissue damage?

[joeydb]

I love this sport, but why are so many idiots in charge of it? We're always getting bad news. It's depressing.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

That sounds like a contradiction. You say that no horses are "med dependent". If the horses don't need meds, then why give them meds?

With regards to genetics, there is strong evidence that bleeding is genetic.

"According to data presented at the Summit, bleeding is to some degree an inherited trait, and the more horses whose bleeding was controlled by Lasix go to the breeding shed, the more that trait will tend to appear in subsequent generation."
http://businessofracing.blogspot.com...o-be-done.html

Seriously? Horses are treated for issues just like any other flesh and blood being. That doesnt mean they are dependent on meds, just that they arent beyond the scope of illness or malady. Just as people who take a daily dose of aspirin as a preventative measure aren't dependent on aspirin, horses arent dependent on lasix or just about any other med.

The "evidence" that bleeding is to some degree an inherited trait is flimsy considering that pretty much all horses are known to bleed from time to time. What people just dont seem to understand is that often bleeding doesn't just happen out of thin air, there are a whole laundry list of things that can help cause a horse to bleed and none of them involve the horses sire or dam. Ignoring it wont make it better and if you or any other person thinks that lasix or any medication is the biggest mistake being made in the thoroughbred horse breeding arena then you have fallen for the bait, hook line and sinker.

I support this if they ban all diabetes medicine for humans.

[citycat]

Obviously Cannon Shell has the most insightfull and logical thoughts on the subject. Why can't the people in charge be so thoughtful on the subject also?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by citycat

Obviously Cannon Shell has the most insightfull and logical thoughts on the subject. Why can't the people in charge be so thoughtful on the subject also?

Thanks. To answer your question because they don't want critical thinking on the issues, they want it their "way" because in their little minds they want to dial the clock back to a 1960'ish pollyanna version of racing. The anti-medication cartel has already changed course by trumpeting lasix as a performance enhancer despite the obvious major difference between what we think of with that label (EPO, sublimaize, etorphine) and something that is innocous, regulated and all in all a pretty tame and effective medication. That so many people now believe what they are saying shows that not only is the cartel willing to engage in a scorched earth policy, consequences be damned in order to get their way but that so many people within the industry don't know a damn thing about what is going on. The policy of labeling lasix as a performance enhancer is what emboldened the NY Times and anti-medication cartel lapdog Drape into this supposed expose they are doing. Rather than properly educating people (both inside and ouside) about the issues and managing the damage from any reform campaigns that are embarked about (there is no way to discuss breakdowns as an issue in a positive light, using stats showing a trend of fewer can also be tossed back into ones face if there is a bad run like the one in NY), the issue gets politicized and in the ensuing scramble to curry the publics favor, a political correctness comes about which dooms any hope of getting anything reasonably effective done. There is an element of class warfare here, a distinct effort by some who are simply looking to profit by keeping more of their partnerships money if in fact vet bills are lowered (that wont happen but it a whole different tangent), and a segment of owners who want to reshape horseracing into something more similar to steeplechase racing which will rid them of statebred programs, racino's and weekday or night cards.

[pointman]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Seriously? Horses are treated for issues just like any other flesh and blood being. That doesnt mean they are dependent on meds, just that they arent beyond the scope of illness or malady. Just as people who take a daily dose of aspirin as a preventative measure aren't dependent on aspirin, horses arent dependent on lasix or just about any other med.

The "evidence" that bleeding is to some degree an inherited trait is flimsy considering that pretty much all horses are known to bleed from time to time. What people just dont seem to understand is that often bleeding doesn't just happen out of thin air, there are a whole laundry list of things that can help cause a horse to bleed and none of them involve the horses sire or dam. Ignoring it wont make it better and if you or any other person thinks that lasix or any medication is the biggest mistake being made in the thoroughbred horse breeding arena then you have fallen for the bait, hook line and sinker.

Maybe the supporters should lobby the NFL to ban all painkillers. After all, the sons of many NFL players become NFL players themselves, despite no medical evidence we don't want to create genetically inferior football players who are dependent on pain medication or create the appearance that the outcome of football games are altered by drugs.

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by pointman

Maybe the supporters should lobby the NFL to ban all painkillers. After all, the sons of many NFL players become NFL players themselves, despite no medical evidence we don't want to create genetically inferior football players who are dependent on pain medication or create the appearance that the outcome of football games are altered by drugs.

The NFL is a perfect example belying the "perception" argument of the ban-Lasix crowd that people won't wager on an athletic contest if they suspect the participants are utilizing drugs to in order to be able to participate in the contest. There are many reasons why members of the general public won't wager or attend horse racing. That Lasix is given to the horses before they race (most people don't even know that occurs) is far down on that list of reasons.

Racing officials need to recognize that, like almost all sports today with the exception of football, baseball and basketball, it is a niche sport with a core group of passionate followers that is unlikely to be embraced widely by the general public. Industry leaders should address the concerns of the passionate followers the sport already has and stop worrying about broader public perception.

One other thing that really bothers me about the whole episode. To implement a rule that could so fundamentally alter the sport as we know it, they need to have broad industry consensus. To implement it on an 8-6 vote, or something like that, is a huge mistake.

[MichiganMattA]

Man, Romans was awesome today on ATR...

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

The NFL is a perfect example belying the "perception" argument of the ban-Lasix crowd that people won't wager on an athletic contest if they suspect the participants are utilizing drugs to in order to be able to participate in the contest. There are many reasons why members of the general public won't wager or attend horse racing. That Lasix is given to the horses before they race (most people don't even know that occurs) is far down on that list of reasons.

Racing officials need to recognize that, like almost all sports today with the exception of football, baseball and basketball, it is a niche sport with a core group of passionate followers that is unlikely to be embraced widely by the general public. Industry leaders should address the concerns of the passionate followers the sport already has and stop worrying about broader public perception.

One other thing that really bothers me about the whole episode. To implement a rule that could so fundamentally alter the sport as we know it, they need to have broad industry consensus. To implement it on an 8-6 vote, or something like that, is a huge mistake.

So true. What I keep saying is that the negative public percetion about medication in the sport comes mostly from people within the sport. If they are worried about public perception than they need to change course 180 degrees and shut the hell up. When Peta is using your quotes in their propaganda that should be your hint that you may need to censor yourself.

[cloud_break]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I know of no horses who are "med dependent". It is completely made up bs. There are no medications that alter the genetic makeup of a stallion or mare or thier progeny. Perhaps if these people weren't in such a big hurry to get the horses off the track to breed (and protect their investment) perhaps they could sort themselves out a little better on the racetrack.

Bad choice of words on my part. Perhaps "enhanced"?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cloud_break

Bad choice of words on my part. Perhaps "enhanced"?

If you have a cold and take medicine do you feel that you are enhanced and are providing your employer with better than ordinary effort?

[cloud_break]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

If you have a cold and take medicine do you feel that you are enhanced and are providing your employer with better than ordinary effort?

Point taken. My attempt was to point out the only partially plausible argument for medication reform. A lasix ban misses the mark entirely. The fact is, we need more horses in more races generating more revenue for the whole industry. As you correctly point out, there are certain forces that don't see it that way and are willing to go to great lengths to impose their will.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cloud_break

Point taken. My attempt was to point out the only partially plausible argument for medication reform. A lasix ban misses the mark entirely. The fact is, we need more horses in more races generating more revenue for the whole industry. As you correctly point out, there are certain forces that don't see it that way and are willing to go to great lengths to impose their will.

What is worse than a lasix ban is the negative manner in which those who wish to ban it operate. It is hard to change public perception and making things seem much worse than they really are is hardly a way to make things better. Dividing the sport rather than bringing it together won't bring about positive change and is going to leave long lasting damage that won't easily go away. It isn't like we have all this surplus revenue and goodwill to throw away chasing ghosts.

[Travis Stone]

The most annoying part of this whole thing has been how people reference surveys of horseplayers and say how "x-out-of-y" want a ban of said drug or other raceday meds.

I don't know about anyone else, but I know, from a gambling perspective, I have no interest in handicapping a minefield where I have to guess which horses may or may not bleed or what have you.

I'll bet half of the "x" couldn't even say what the meds are, what they do and what affect they have on horses to begin with.