When "Neighborhood Watch" Gets Out of Hand

[pointman]

You mean there is even a possibility that Zimmerman acted in self defense? I thought he should be arrested and booked and charged with manslaughter by this incompetent police department that dismisses witnesses? Isn't there a history of racial abuse by this police department? What about his father's connections? He was a magistrate so the fact that he wasn't arrested must be a conspiracy, right? Please don't tell me that the media, Sharpton and Jackson may have been giving out inaccurate information?

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by pointman

You mean there is even a possibility that Zimmerman acted in self defense? I thought he should be arrested and booked and charged with manslaughter by this incompetent police department that dismisses witnesses? Isn't there a history of racial abuse by this police department? What about his father's connections? He was a magistrate so the fact that he wasn't arrested must be a conspiracy, right? Please don't tell me that the media, Sharpton and Jackson may have been giving out inaccurate information?

the one thing that everyone is certain of, including the police.. because its right there on the 911 call, is that Zimmerman was following Martin.. pretty much stalking the kid for no reason.

If anyone had a reason to "stand your ground" it would be Martin.

Not one person on this site could tell me that if they were belong followed, very strangely.. by a stranger.. that they wouldnt react with one of the two basic instincts; flight or fight. So after Martin kept walking and was still being stalked... who on earth could get mad at the kid for possibly turning around and defending himself?

there is something VERY shady about this Zimmerman guy. he's already shown a violent temper with past arrests. dude has called the cops.. what, 49 times or something? he sounds like someone I'd never want to meet and certainly someone I wouldnt want stalking me on the streets.

[Danzig]

i think based on everything that what it all comes down to is t martin would be alive and well were this guy not hell-bent on being some sort of wanna be cop vigilante. he had no business doing what he was doing, and trayvon reacted the way any normal person would. the guy wasn't a cop, wasn't a security guard-trayvon probably figured the guy meant him harm. why would he think otherwise? the guys is a loose cannon and a nut.
zimmerman didn't act in self-defense, he went out of his way to force a confrontation. he was the aggressor in this whole sordid mess. had he done as told by the 911 operator, the boy would be alive and all this would never have happened. but no, he's a kook who acted improperly from start to finish.

[bigrun]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

the one thing that everyone is certain of, including the police.. because its right there on the 911 call, is that Zimmerman was following Martin.. pretty much stalking the kid for no reason.

If anyone had a reason to "stand your ground" it would be Martin.

Not one person on this site could tell me that if they were belong followed, very strangely.. by a stranger.. that they wouldnt react with one of the two basic instincts; flight or fight. So after Martin kept walking and was still being stalked... who on earth could get mad at the kid for possibly turning around and defending himself?

there is something VERY shady about this Zimmerman guy. he's already shown a violent temper with past arrests. dude has called the cops.. what, 49 times or something? he sounds like someone I'd never want to meet and certainly someone I wouldnt want stalking me on the streets.

Without testimony from the kid Trayvon this will never be resolved to everyones's satisfaction, not even close...just do a thorough investigation and charge or release him....and as per Geraldo, don't wear hoodies, they are dangerous...

Originally Posted by bigrun

don't wear hoodies, they are dangerous...

You mean like this guy:

http://profootball.scout.com/Picture...Bill+Belichick


Ocala Mike

[bigrun]

Originally Posted by Ocala Mike

You mean like this guy:

http://profootball.scout.com/Picture...Bill+Belichick


Ocala Mike

Especially not - if you are playing the Saints..

[bigrun]

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by bigrun

Without testimony from the kid Trayvon this will never be resolved to everyones's satisfaction, not even close...just do a thorough investigation and charge or release him....and as per Geraldo, don't wear hoodies, they are dangerous...

i fully expect that if they arrested GZ and put him on trial, he'd walk.

[Clip-Clop]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i fully expect that if they arrested GZ and put him on trial, he'd walk.

These people let that lady what killed her little girl free.

Where yo hood at? Represent yo hood. Lets make a mockery of the house and represent my district with multiple murders this week.

Such a shame what this country has become. That ass clown should be removed from office immediately.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Clip-Clop

These people let that lady what killed her little girl free.

that's true. and with the law as currently written, it wouldn't surprise me at all to see a not guilty verdict. now, what they would need to do is allow a finding of guilt to a lesser charge-in this case manslaughter. for that i can see a possible guilty verdict. but if they go for 2nd, i don't think it'll happen based on the law on the books, purported shoddy investigating and lack of witnesses.

and yes, absolutely they should wait and no one should jump the gun and have a witch hunt-the duke rape case taught many people that. but right now i can easily say that the one wouldn't be dead were it not for the irresponsible actions of the other. whether that makes him guilty of murder i don't know.

The most they could charge him with is voluntary manslaughter. Good luck with a conviction on that one.

[pointman]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

the one thing that everyone is certain of, including the police.. because its right there on the 911 call, is that Zimmerman was following Martin.. pretty much stalking the kid for no reason.

If anyone had a reason to "stand your ground" it would be Martin.

Not one person on this site could tell me that if they were belong followed, very strangely.. by a stranger.. that they wouldnt react with one of the two basic instincts; flight or fight. So after Martin kept walking and was still being stalked... who on earth could get mad at the kid for possibly turning around and defending himself?

there is something VERY shady about this Zimmerman guy. he's already shown a violent temper with past arrests. dude has called the cops.. what, 49 times or something? he sounds like someone I'd never want to meet and certainly someone I wouldnt want stalking me on the streets.

Lori, this misses my point. My point is that many are jumping to conclusions without all the facts. I am not taking either side here, but to conduct a witch hunt without knowledge of the true facts and to believe everything the media spouts out as if it is true is just as much a disservice to everyone as letting a guilty man go free. People should allow the justice system time to resolve this without resorting to vigilante justice.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by pointman

Lori, this misses my point. My point is that many are jumping to conclusions without all the facts. I am not taking either side here, but to conduct a witch hunt without knowledge of the true facts and to believe everything the media spouts out as if it is true is just as much a disservice to everyone as letting a guilty man go free. People should allow the justice system time to resolve this without resorting to vigilante justice.

i agree with this.

Though.. if somehow this man is not even arrested, it send a very dangerous message. It almost makes it okay to act like a cop and follow someone for no reason, and then shoot when you feel like you're in danger.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

i agree with this.

Though.. if somehow this man is not even arrested, it send a very dangerous message. It almost makes it okay to act like a cop and follow someone for no reason, and then shoot when you feel like you're in danger.

You keep saying that Zimmerman was following the kid "for no reason". He was following him for a very good reason. Zimmerman is the neighborhood watch captain. He knows the neighborhood and he knows the people who live there. It's a gated community. He sees a person that he has never seen before, walking through the neighborhood. Why wouldn't he follow him? What would be the point of neighborhood watch otherwise? If you were working neighborhood watch and you see a person in your neighborhood that you've never seen before, would you ignore them?

I've never officially been involved in neighborhood watch but I always keep my eyes open. When I do see something suspicious, I call the police. And I always follow the person until the police arrive. If I didn't follow the person, the police would never find the guy. The police usually don't arrive for at least 10 minutes. The person may be 10 blocks away by then.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Some of you have commented that Zimmerman should have already been charged with manslaughter. Whether we are talking about this case or another case, the police are not going to charge a person until they have a strong case. You have to remember that if they charge a person, the preliminary hearing is usually held within a couple of weeks.

At the preliminary hearing, the burden on the prosecution is not as a great as it is at trial. But the prosecution does have to show the judge that there is a strong case against the person. If the prosecution doesn't have some pretty strong evidence of the person's guilt, the judge will throw out the case. It won't even go to trial.

This is why it can often times take a long time for a district attorney to file charges. They want to wait until they feel they have a strong case. They want to wait until they feel they have enough evidence not only to present the judge at the preliminary hearing, but enough evidence to prove that the person is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt at trial. The last thing in the world they want is to have such a weak case that the judge throws it out at the preliminary hearing, before it even gets to trial. That has happened before too.

In this particular case, as of right now you have Zimmerman saying that Trayvon attacked him and was beating the crap out of him. He says he acted in self-defense. The police and prosecutors need to find evidence that contradicts this. If they can find some forensic evidence that contradicts this or if they can find a witness that says Trayvon didn't attack Zimmerman first, then they might be able to build a case against Zimmerman. But at this point, I don't think they have anything that contradicts Zimmerman's story. At this point, I don't think they have much of a case. In Florida, if a person is beating the crap out of you, you have the right to use deadly force.

[jms62]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

You keep saying that Zimmerman was following the kid "for no reason". He was following him for a very good reason. Zimmerman is the neighborhood watch captain. He knows the neighborhood and he knows the people who live there. It's a gated community. He sees a person that he has never seen before, walking through the neighborhood. Why wouldn't he follow him? What would be the point of neighborhood watch otherwise? If you were working neighborhood watch and you see a person in your neighborhood that you've never seen before, would you ignore them?

I've never officially been involved in neighborhood watch but I always keep my eyes open. When I do see something suspicious, I call the police. And I always follow the person until the police arrive. If I didn't follow the person, the police would never find the guy. The police usually don't arrive for at least 10 minutes. The person may be 10 blocks away by then.

Would you continue to persue even when the police dispatcher clearly tells you not to. To me he becomes the aggressor at this point.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by jms62

Would you continue to persue even when the police dispatcher clearly tells you not to. To me he becomes the aggressor at this point.

I would continue to pursue in my car but I would certainly keep my distance. I would stay in my car and I would stay a good 50 to 100 yards away while I followed. You don't know if the person is armed. And even if they're not armed, you don't want to get into a physical confrontation.

Zimmerman obviously made a huge mistake. He got way too close. He should have never gotten out of his car.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

You keep saying that Zimmerman was following the kid "for no reason". He was following him for a very good reason. Zimmerman is the neighborhood watch captain. He knows the neighborhood and he knows the people who live there. It's a gated community. He sees a person that he has never seen before, walking through the neighborhood. Why wouldn't he follow him? What would be the point of neighborhood watch otherwise? If you were working neighborhood watch and you see a person in your neighborhood that you've never seen before, would you ignore them?

I've never officially been involved in neighborhood watch but I always keep my eyes open. When I do see something suspicious, I call the police. And I always follow the person until the police arrive. If I didn't follow the person, the police would never find the guy. The police usually don't arrive for at least 10 minutes. The person may be 10 blocks away by then.

i read he wasn't even a member of neighborhood watch. then there's the 911 operator telling him not to follow martin. and it's certainly not nw rules to carry a gun, or confront a person. other than all that, you're right.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i read he wasn't even a member of neighborhood watch. then there's the 911 operator telling him not to follow martin. and it's certainly not nw rules to carry a gun, or confront a person. other than all that, you're right.

A lot of people carry guns in Florida. It is very easy to get a permit to carry a concealed weapon in Florida. It was totally legal for Zimmerman to be carrying that gun. If you have a concealed weapons' permit and you do neighborhood watch, I don't think it would make much sense to leave your gun at home.

I guess Zimmerman got out of his car and started following Trayvon on foot after Trayvon cut down a grass path that went between houses. Zimmerman obviously couldn't drive on the grass path. Most people would have probably given up the chase at this point but Zimmerman was obviously a little overzealous.

We know that at some point Zimmerman and Trayvon came face to face and they had some words. Trayvon supposedly asked Zimmerman why he was following him. Zimmerman supposedly asked Trayvon what he was doing there. We don't know what else, if anything was said after that.

According to Zimmerman, at some point he walked away and was heading back to his car. If that is the case, then the confrontation was over at that point. If Trayvon attacked him while he is walking back to his car, after the verbal confrontation is over, then I think Trayvon was the aggressor. Some of you have argued that Zimmerman was the aggressor, which he may have been at the beginning. But after he walks away and is heading back to his car, neither man is a threat to the other. Trayvon has no justification to attack him at this point and I think Zimmemran is totally justified in defending himself.

If this in fact is how things went down, I don't think prosecutors have much of a case. Prosecutors will need to come up with some evidence that shows that things did not go down like this.