9/18 (WO): Woodbine Mile, Northern Dancer (G1's), Canadian (G2)

[hockey2315]

I know Woodbine is sooo progressive, good for bettors blah blah blah. But can someone explain to me why they place big races so poorly on their cards? It can't be a good idea to break up the big stakes with these terrible claimers/Ontario bred races. An all-stakes PK3 would generate way more handle.

[Dahoss]

Quite a ride by Jaime Spencer on Dance and Dance. It was like he tried to find trouble.

[hockey2315]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

Quite a ride by Jaime Spencer on Dance and Dance. It was like he tried to find trouble.

I was just saying that to myself. Wow that was awful.

Originally Posted by hockey2315

I know Woodbine is sooo progressive, good for bettors blah blah blah. But can someone explain to me why they place big races so poorly on their cards? It can't be a good idea to break up the big stakes with these terrible claimers/Ontario bred races. An all-stakes PK3 would generate way more handle.

People like me, who rarely play Woodbine unless its a big race like today will only focus on the three major stakes races. Since its spread out from race 5 to race 10, I am forced to handicap 6 to 8 races if I am playing the pick4. and rolling pick 3s. If they had put the races together back to back to back I will only handicap 3-5 races. On track, the people will stick around longer to watch all 3 stakes races 3 hours as opposed to 1.5 hours with 3 big races together.

[hockey2315]

Originally Posted by helicopter11

People like me, who rarely play Woodbine unless its a big race like today will only focus on the three major stakes races. Since its spread out from race 5 to race 10, I am forced to handicap 6 to 8 races if I am playing the pick4. and rolling pick 3s. If they had put the races together back to back to back I will only handicap 3-5 races. On track, the people will stick around longer to watch all 3 stakes races 3 hours as opposed to 1.5 hours with 3 big races together.

Or people won't want to or won't feel comfortable handicapping those races and therefore won't play as much. That's how it is for me at least, and I play Woodbine a lot. Why take a few very attractive wagers and spread them out into more barely attractive wagers? I really don't think you're increasing handle that way.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by hockey2315

I know Woodbine is sooo progressive, good for bettors blah blah blah. But can someone explain to me why they place big races so poorly on their cards? It can't be a good idea to break up the big stakes with these terrible claimers/Ontario bred races. An all-stakes PK3 would generate way more handle.

You should contact Jim Bannon and ask him about this. He's one of racing's good guys and I imagine he could offer you their perspective.

[NTamm1215]

Dance and Dance was a very unfortunate loser in the Mile. Of course, I bet on him and that probably had something to do with it.

[hockey2315]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

You should contact Jim Bannon and ask him about this. He's one of racing's good guys and I imagine he could offer you their perspective.

I might do that - thanks. What's your take on it?

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by hockey2315

I might do that - thanks. What's your take on it?

I don't think it's appropriate for me to criticize other racetracks publically, and given Woodbine's overall high level of competence, I would ( at the very least ) give them the benefit of the doubt. I doubt it was a random decision.

[hockey2315]

Fair enough. . . and I agree with the "overall high level of competence" part.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I don't think it's appropriate for me to criticize other racetracks publically, and given Woodbine's overall high level of competence, I would ( at the very least ) give them the benefit of the doubt. I doubt it was a random decision.

Mountainman would.

Originally Posted by hockey2315

I might do that - thanks. What's your take on it?

Please post thier response for us

[PatCummings]

Originally Posted by hockey2315

But can someone explain to me why they place big races so poorly on their cards? It can't be a good idea to break up the big stakes with these terrible claimers/Ontario bred races. An all-stakes PK3 would generate way more handle.

So poorly? It CAN'T be a good idea? All stakes P3 = WAY more handle?

Woodbine generated record handle for Sunday's Woodbine Mile card (been running since 1997). The way I see it, the split gives you a reason to pay attention to the claimers/Ontario breds. If it was only an all-stakes p3, you know exactly when to tune in.

They are a progressive organization and I guarantee you they have run the projections for keeping all the stakes together versus keeping them separate, and discounting the handle differences. They are that good.

[hockey2315]

So they're the only track brilliant enough to come up with this? I think Belmont should card their big races Oct. 1 as 1,3,5,7,9,11 and sprinkle in $10K claimers. Look, I really like Woodbine's product - they have good turf racing and competitive 2-year-olds. . . maybe if others are forced to they'll look at an Ontario-bred claimer on Polytrack and up their handle, but personally, it just forces me to skip races or not play vertical wagers. If a track lures me in because they have some nice stakes, a bait and switch like that just isn't going to work. . . I guess I'm the only one.

[hockey2315]

Got a response from Woodbine. . . going to ask if I can post it here.

[Clip-Clop]

Originally Posted by hockey2315

So they're the only track brilliant enough to come up with this? I think Belmont should card their big races Oct. 1 as 1,3,5,7,9,11 and sprinkle in $10K claimers. Look, I really like Woodbine's product - they have good turf racing and competitive 2-year-olds. . . maybe if others are forced to they'll look at an Ontario-bred claimer on Polytrack and up their handle, but personally, it just forces me to skip races or not play vertical wagers. If a track lures me in because they have some nice stakes, a bait and switch like that just isn't going to work. . . I guess I'm the only one.

Not alone, I ducked the Pk-3 from the Dancer on through too. I prefer the stakes running in order, just my opinion. No doubt they have been successful and I still played up there but no vertical either.

[hockey2315]

Dance and Dance Shadwell Mile bound. . . Will probably be the wiseguy horse of the century, but I assume Gio and Get Stormy will be there to take money.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by hockey2315

I guess I'm the only one.

You aren't. I avoided the pick 4 because of it.

[my miss storm cat]

I am so confused.

A couple of you who I respect are talking about Dance and Dance and I was wondering if you could tell me something (and I don't mean this in a rude way).

Why?

It's not you, it's me and I'm trying to figure out what I'm missing here...

I completely blew just about everything on Sunday. Really really awful day as far as wagering but I look at this horse and I'm lost.

His pps go back as far as his 23rd place finish at Ascot.

In his 15 runs prior to those on his pps he won three times, was 2nd 5 and 3rd twice. Not that this means anything at all cause I am obviously no expert but there was not a single horse I had ever heard of looking at the fields (although there was one with the unfortunate name of Reject which I just thought I'd mention for absolutely no reason).

It sems like that very nice 2nd to Side Glance was the best field he ever beat home (but then you look at who was there and for example 10 YO Mac Love who I really like was 33/1 and making his 73rd start... hardly something to write home about)

I wish Mr. Vaughan well (I think the only runner he has that I've ever heard of is Little Book who has yet to win but she's just a baby).

Soooo can one of you tell me why, at this point, you even care where his next start will be?

That sounded rude and pissy and I am sorry... I don't mean for it to.

[Bogey]

Dance and Dance seemed loaded turning for home and Spencer found himself in no mans land. He finally yanked him towards the rail too late. He's definitely a play back in the Shadwell Mile.

I'm one of a few that feel that Spencer has received some unjustified criticism for his rides in the U.S.. He's a top jock and racing fans can't get over his ride on Antonious Pius in the '04 Mile (Singletary). He didn't get any credit for his G1 wins aboard Cape Blanco (Manhattan & Arlington Million) or Wigmore Hall (Northern Dancer).