unions killing jobs...

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Riot

Funny, in many other first world countries, every worker gets benefits like that.

It's called, "normal".

I laugh at the demonization of unions, by people that hardly mentioned them a year ago <g>

Oh, well, when the demonization of the Muslim Kenyan Non-Citizen Black President has been disproved, and the demonization of "death panel health care" has been disproved, you have to go with something new. Last year the Koch Brothers and the RGA and ALEC decided it would be unions, and passed out the talking points sheets at the annual convention for the governors to initiate at the state level. Politics power grabs. So it goes. GOP-TV (Faux News) got the memo, too, and started in training their listeners that unions are filled with "evil thugs". Those kindergarten teachers and 9-11 NY firefighters, yeah, those thugs! <g>

The GOP has always been good at messaging. Hell, Rupert Murdoch supported Obama, but Roger Ailes had a hissy fit of hate, and was making so much money for Rupert, he let Ailes run with the Obama-hate on Faux. The Tea Party is causing the regular GOP no end of pain, as the TP (formed by GOP operatives) got out of control and talk the talk, but fail to vote the vote the right way in Congress, but the GOP is taking them down one by one and regaining control (Rove against Perry and Bachmann, for example). You need compliance in the underlings to survive in the current GOP theocracy. The power elite aren't giving up any of it, especially to a bunch of fools who don't believe in climate change or evolution.

most workers get high pay for not much work? i'm sure that's not what you meant.
thing is, although unions aren't 'killing jobs' in the case that chuck cited, they are most definitely in the wrong. the tack they are taking that boeing is in the wrong for starting up another plant is absolutely ridiculous. but, their position is that if it's non union, it's bad is ridiculous.
a non-union job isn't necessarily a bad job, or underpaid, or where people get abused. nor are all union jobs good, high paying jobs.
btw, koch owns a company (perhaps several?) with both union and non union sites. the unionized plant here has been thru several contract negotiations since koch bought them, with no problems at all. no attempts to crush unions, altho that was all the gossip back when they made the purchase.


as for dino's post, he probably makes the same money as his union brothers. but he doesn't mention that!

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Danzig

most workers get high pay for not much work? i'm sure that's not what you meant.

Yes, true, most workers in other first world countries get earlier retirement, work less hours a week, get paid maternity leave, get more paid vacation, and better pensions in the US. Not that they only work "5 hours a week".

Calling all union workers freeloaders is nonsensical. Yes, it certainly applies to some (I grew up watching a job in Chicago take 6 guys: 2 to actually work, 2 to stand around and "supervise", and 2 to report back to headquarters)

btw, koch owns a company (perhaps several?) with both union and non union sites. the unionized plant here has been thru several contract negotiations since koch bought them, with no problems at all. no attempts to crush unions, altho that was all the gossip back when they made the purchase.

I think people forget that, when any union has terrific benefits, it's the company that negotiated that with the union. It takes two. And yes, many unions and companies have excellent relations.

Many company workers repeatedly refuse to unionize (Toyota in America, for example) because the company treats them well with excellent benefits already. There is no need.

For example, in Wisconsin, Gov. Scott Walker demanded unions start paying for more of their health care and benefits as the state had a budget deficit. The unions immediately agreed to 100% of the cuts.

Walker busted the unions as "evil money-grabbing thugs" anyways. Sometimes it's the company that are really the lying thugs.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Danzig

thing is, although unions aren't 'killing jobs' in the case that chuck cited, they are most definitely in the wrong. the tack they are taking that boeing is in the wrong for starting up another plant is absolutely ridiculous. but, their position is that if it's non union, it's bad is ridiculous.

Uh if the unions prevail here how doesnt it kill all the jobs that the new factory would have added?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Uh if the unions prevail here how doesnt it kill all the jobs that the new factory would have added?

Boeing Dreamliner delays: years of bad management and outsourcing

http://www.dailyfinance.com/2011/01/...-goes-too-far/

Specifically, did Boeing outsource too much of the Dreamliner's components to other companies in other countries? Will the 787's outsourcing problems persist? And what might this mean for airlines, passengers and investors in Boeing stock? The short answers are: yes, probably, and it's too early to tell.

Yeah, American companies should complain about evil American unions, and outsource like hell until the GOP can take over completely and remove "inhibitors to job creation": like minimum wage restrictions, child labor laws, having to pay overtime, and workplace safety rules, so it's "reasonable" to return jobs to the United States.

Of course, they'll never be able to remove those "inhibitors to job creation" until they bust the unions up and get them the hell out of the way so they can overturn 100 years of worker rights. How can we do that? Oh, yeah! Blame the unions for the financial disasters caused by Wall Street and large corporate selfish irresponsibility!

"The United States of America - Race To The Bottom, Embracing Third World Status"

[timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by Riot

Boeing Dreamliner delays: years of bad management and outsourcing

http://www.dailyfinance.com/2011/01/...-goes-too-far/



Yeah, American companies should complain about evil American unions, and outsource like hell until the GOP can take over completely and remove "inhibitors to job creation": like minimum wage restrictions, child labor laws, having to pay overtime, and workplace safety rules, so it's "reasonable" to return jobs to the United States.

Of course, they'll never be able to remove those "inhibitors to job creation" until they bust the unions up and get them the hell out of the way so they can overturn 100 years of worker rights. How can we do that? Oh, yeah! Blame the unions for the financial disasters caused by Wall Street and large corporate selfish irresponsibility!

"The United States of America - Race To The Bottom, Embracing Third World Status"

You can only yell "fire" so many times,Riot!....but I kinda like that last line...

[jms62]

Originally Posted by timmgirvan

You can only yell "fire" so many times,Riot!....but I kinda like that last line...

She is 100% correct on the last line. You have been outta the workplace FAR FAR too long. I still shake my head in disbelief knowing you are on SSI and seeing you 100% behind those that are all willing to take it away. I really hope they dont even as i write a fat check to cover my own disability insurance.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by jms62

She is 100% correct on the last line. You have been outta the workplace FAR FAR too long. I still shake my head in disbelief knowing you are on SSI and seeing you 100% behind those that are all willing to take it away. I really hope they dont even as i write a fat check to cover my own disability insurance.

The problem is that just being on the other side of an issue doesn't make your side right. The idea that all corporations are evil is as wrong as the idea that all unions are bad. But the huge multinational corps that everyone bitches about have to stay competitive in an ever increasingly competitive global market. Some of the other countries that people like Riot praise routinely break trade treaty language and fund private companies with gov't money which makes all those cushy benefits and vacationtime a lot easier for those foreign companies to dole out. Look at Airbus versus Boeing in a little more depth and you'll see what I am talking about. We still can't forget that the corporate tax rate in the US is the highest of the supposed 1st world countries despite all the hand wringing about certain companies supposedly paying no taxes.

Not every union is a bad one. Unions that cover workers in dangerous jobs are still relevant. But you have to have extremely rose tinted glasses to defend the routine practices of the nations teachers unions and some of the other completely politicalized unions. Acting as though you are knocking the teaching profession when you point out the lunacy of thier unions positions is like me taking offense as a horseman when people knock the TOC for raising the takeout. Silly.

The problem is that like every other situation nowdays there is a whole bunch of complex issues that most people just don't know about or understand...however the big labor unions really aren't that complicated. They believe in scorched earth policy and the furtherence of their own political clout. When those policies result in problems, just blame the rich guys, evil corporations and the GOP. It seems like Riot has adopted the same tactics but she adds in GOP governors and any GOP female politician as well.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The problem is that just being on the other side of an issue doesn't make your side right. The idea that all corporations are evil is as wrong as the idea that all unions are bad. But the huge multinational corps that everyone bitches about have to stay competitive in an ever increasingly competitive global market. Some of the other countries that people like Riot praise routinely break trade treaty language and fund private companies with gov't money which makes all those cushy benefits and vacationtime a lot easier for those foreign companies to dole out. Look at Airbus versus Boeing in a little more depth and you'll see what I am talking about. We still can't forget that the corporate tax rate in the US is the highest of the supposed 1st world countries despite all the hand wringing about certain companies supposedly paying no taxes.

Not every union is a bad one. Unions that cover workers in dangerous jobs are still relevant. But you have to have extremely rose tinted glasses to defend the routine practices of the nations teachers unions and some of the other completely politicalized unions. Acting as though you are knocking the teaching profession when you point out the lunacy of thier unions positions is like me taking offense as a horseman when people knock the TOC for raising the takeout. Silly.

The problem is that like every other situation nowdays there is a whole bunch of complex issues that most people just don't know about or understand...however the big labor unions really aren't that complicated. They believe in scorched earth policy and the furtherence of their own political clout. When those policies result in problems, just blame the rich guys, evil corporations and the GOP. It seems like Riot has adopted the same tactics but she adds in GOP governors and any GOP female politician as well.

i don't know really that unions do much in a dangerous setting. with osha regs, state safety regs, the union doesn't provide much in that regard.

[jms62]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The problem is that just being on the other side of an issue doesn't make your side right. The idea that all corporations are evil is as wrong as the idea that all unions are bad. But the huge multinational corps that everyone bitches about have to stay competitive in an ever increasingly competitive global market. Some of the other countries that people like Riot praise routinely break trade treaty language and fund private companies with gov't money which makes all those cushy benefits and vacationtime a lot easier for those foreign companies to dole out. Look at Airbus versus Boeing in a little more depth and you'll see what I am talking about. We still can't forget that the corporate tax rate in the US is the highest of the supposed 1st world countries despite all the hand wringing about certain companies supposedly paying no taxes.

Not every union is a bad one. Unions that cover workers in dangerous jobs are still relevant. But you have to have extremely rose tinted glasses to defend the routine practices of the nations teachers unions and some of the other completely politicalized unions. Acting as though you are knocking the teaching profession when you point out the lunacy of thier unions positions is like me taking offense as a horseman when people knock the TOC for raising the takeout. Silly.

The problem is that like every other situation nowdays there is a whole bunch of complex issues that most people just don't know about or understand...however the big labor unions really aren't that complicated. They believe in scorched earth policy and the furtherence of their own political clout. When those policies result in problems, just blame the rich guys, evil corporations and the GOP. It seems like Riot has adopted the same tactics but she adds in GOP governors and any GOP female politician as well.

As opposed to big business who believe in a scoched earth policy vis a vis the US Economy and the jobs that fuel that economy when they ship jobs overseas to meet their short term goals of their Execs so their stock options are in the money and they can cash out now without any thought to the destruction they are wreaking on future generations. Lets give em a pass because by golly they need to be competitive in this Global Economy.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

When those policies result in problems, just blame the rich guys, evil corporations and the GOP. It seems like Riot has adopted the same tactics but she adds in GOP governors and any GOP female politician as well.

It's not "tactics", it's reality.

First, look at the facts of who has contributed most to destroying this country in the past decade with lying about wars, killing thousands of our young men and women, destroying the financial structure of this country, and reckless, unfunded spending and charging on the credit card.

Secondly, the GOP Governors, through Americans for Progress, Koch Brothers, ALEC, Republican Governors Association, Crossroads, etc most certainly do literally hand out bullet goals for governors. That is why all the sudden union busting stuff, the trying to privatize, the removal of home rule and appointment of "managers" by Governors, etc.

The current round of female GOP politicians of the ilk of Michelle Bachmann and Sarah Palin are crazy, not-intelligent cult members. They deserve to be called exactly what they are. Not ready for prime time, and most certainly not qualified to lead this country.

I've been part of the GOP my whole life, from the inside, and it's gone over the edge into craziness. The Republican leadership doesn't even pretend to represent the interests of the average citizen any more. They are a clear danger to this country.

You're welcome to them. Trying to disparage or discredit me because I want nothing more to do with that - well, have at it.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by jms62

I still shake my head in disbelief knowing you are on SSI and seeing you 100% behind those that are all willing to take it away. .

The Republican party is master at passing out talking points that convince their base to vote against their own self interests and in favor of wealthy business interests. It has always completely astounded me, the blind following faith of the GOP base.

Of course, that base, the Tea Party - John Bircher - Evangelical wing, has kind of gotten out of control with the loss of the "moderate" Republican to Independence or temporary Democratic affiliation due to the horrors of Bush the Lesser and saying Sarah Palin could be President with a straight face.

But the GOP is trying to reign them in before 2012, as they know they don't have a chance with the cult crazies from Evangelical Land running for office and speaking in public.

The industrialized, highly-populated urban areas of the country are blue, and the rural, agricultural low-population areas are red.

The country is very divided.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Uh if the unions prevail here how doesnt it kill all the jobs that the new factory would have added?

i think i misplaced a comma in what you quoted. i meant it to say you can't make a blanket statement, but in this case, obviously jobs would be killed. that the union is in the wrong.

[Danzig]

are unions the ultimate evil? no. are there abuses, just like with every other business? absolutely.

thing is, a union is ultimately a business, just like any other. they seek to make money, turn a profit. in my opinion, they are akin to churches. they started with a good purpose, but they're only worried about the bottom line at this point.

union membership has been on the decline for years. in the last year or so, the majority of union membership is now from the public sector rather than private. they are kicking and clawing to remain a viable entity. but many of their ideas aren't so much a good thing for the employee, as a good thing for themselves.

we aren't in the condition we are in because of unions-but many corporations bottom lines have been affected by union practices over the years. the automakers are a perfect example. retirement packages and layoff procedures are like nothing found anywhere else. ultimately pensions became too big a burden, much like what the usps is now facing. or schools.

my husband is in a union, has been for close to 15 years-more for self-preservation than anything. sorry, that union is a joke. they gave up the right to strike years ago, which is really the only power a union has in its arsenal. it's as useful at this point as a gelding in a breeding shed. contract negotiations went swimmingly in both contract talks since koch purchased, with no reason to argue over any company offers. but to read about unions and viewpoints, you'd think it was so awful without them. certainly not in this case!

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i think i misplaced a comma in what you quoted. i meant it to say you can't make a blanket statement, but in this case, obviously jobs would be killed. that the union is in the wrong.

But you can make a blanket statement because most unions would rather kill non-union jobs if given the opportunity. Like politicians their own survival is more important to them than common good. Hey I understand why they are taking that position but it doesn't mean I agree with it or condone it.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

But you can make a blanket statement because most unions would rather kill non-union jobs if given the opportunity. Like politicians their own survival is more important to them than common good. Hey I understand why they are taking that position but it doesn't mean I agree with it or condone it.

yeah, i think they would. but if they all wouldn't all the time, that's where i say you can't make a blanket statement...we all know how pesky saying all, or none, or always can be.
what i don't get is a situation like the teachers the other day(in wi, or mi?), who voted to keep their current scheme in place, rather than pay extra for their retirement-which mean some of their laid off fellow teachers would remain laid off. that can't be what the union wanted-laid off union members don't pay dues!
now, why do they want teachers to pay a portion of their retirement? because the pension system in place is becoming untenable, much like with the usps, uaw, etc, etc. another example of people going broke, when small changes can be made now, to avoid big problems later. the teachers were unwilling to do so, so the pain is felt by their former fellow teachers, who are now unemployed. way to take care of their union brothers.