7/2-4 (BEL): Suburban/Dwyer; Futurity/Matron/Bed o' Roses; Prioress

[JJP]

Not sure how the Prioress has managed to maintain its Grade 1 status. Other than Indian Blessing, the roster of winners over the past 10 years or so is quite forgettable.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by JJP

Not sure how the Prioress has managed to maintain its Grade 1 status. Other than Indian Blessing, the roster of winners over the past 10 years or so is quite forgettable.

Carson Hallow and Xtra Heat ( and even Dream Rush ) not included of course.

If you want to debate this, fine, but a little honesty never hurts.

[JJP]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Carson Hallow and Xtra Heat ( and even Dream Rush ) not included of course.

If you want to debate this, fine, but a little honesty never hurts.

OK you got me. The winners of the 2001 and 2002 Prioress were good horses. I guess I should've specified since 2003. Here's the roster of winners since 2003:

2003: House Party
2004: Friendly Michelle
2005: Acey Deucey
2006: Wildcat Bettie B
2007: Dream Rush
2008: Indian Blessing
2009: Cat Moves
2010: Fanny Freud
2011: Her Smile

Like I said earlier, Indian Blessing is a legit Grade 1 horse. Dream Rush? Maybe on her best day. None of the others were worthy of the inflated Grade 1 rating this race has somehow managed to keep. THAT is the truth.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by JJP

OK you got me. The winners of the 2001 and 2002 Prioress were good horses. I guess I should've specified since 2003. Here's the roster of winners since 2003:

2003: House Party
2004: Friendly Michelle
2005: Acey Deucey
2006: Wildcat Bettie B
2007: Dream Rush
2008: Indian Blessing
2009: Cat Moves
2010: Fanny Freud
2011: Her Smile

Like I said earlier, Indian Blessing is a legit Grade 1 horse. Dream Rush? Maybe on her best day. None of the others were worthy of the inflated Grade 1 rating this race has somehow managed to keep. THAT is the truth.

To be fair, Dream Rush was very good, Fanny Freud as well ( don't forget she got hurt after the race and was retired but her resume holds up just fine for this to be a Grade 1..and Acorn/Test winner Champagne D'Oro was in there as well ). I don't have the complete fields, or all the race records, but overall, if you did a fair evaluation, this race holds up OK in that division.

The Gradings system is far from perfect, and there are many races that deserve reevaluation, but considering it is the only 6F Grade 1 for this division, I think it's grading is relatively warranted, if not moreso. What about the slew of synthetic races that got their Gradings when they were dirt races? Is the Spinster a better Grade 1, or worse, than the Prioress, since the switch in surfaces?

Simply put, you can't fairly cherry pick. The discussion needs to be had in its entirety. I am not saying I am against a serious regrading of US races. But, this race always draws these kinds of comments, and they are not as defendable as it may seem on the surface, and the Grading is far more justifiable than any number of annual races.

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

The Gradings system is far from perfect, and there are many races that deserve reevaluation, but considering it is the only 6F Grade 1 for this division, I think it's grading is relatively warranted, if not moreso. What about the slew of synthetic races that got their Gradings when they were dirt races? Is the Spinster a better Grade 1, or worse, than the Prioress, since the switch in surfaces?

Simply put, you can't fairly cherry pick. The discussion needs to be had in its entirety. I am not saying I am against a serious regrading of US races. But, this race always draws these kinds of comments, and they are not as defendable as it may seem on the surface, and the Grading is far more justifiable than any number of annual races.

Before disagreeing with you on the grading of the Prioress, just wanted to say that the MSG show for the race on Monday was excellent. The new pair of Maggie Wolfendale and Mig brought a lot to the telecast, and your analysis of the race was spot on. Looking forward to this week's Man 'O War telecast.

I get the argument about relative merits, but if you compare the depth of the Prioress to races like the Test or the La Brea (the other grade I sprints for 3YO fillies), the Prioress annually seems to come up short of those two. Perhaps this is unfair, but the Prioress is more often like a prep for the Test than an "end" in itself, and I'm dubious of preps being Grade Is (i.e., when they made the Fountain of Youth a Grade I for a short period of time a few years ago even though it's a prep for the Florida Derby). Not that this year is the best example, but the other thing that has hurt the Prioress in many years is its close proximity to the Azalea at Calder. Both races feed the Test nicely, but they also dilute each other.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

I get the argument about relative merits, but if you compare the depth of the Prioress to races like the Test or the La Brea (the other grade I sprints for 3YO fillies), the Prioress annually seems to come up short of those two. Perhaps this is unfair, but the Prioress is more often like a prep for the Test than an "end" in itself, and I'm dubious of preps being Grade Is (i.e., when they made the Fountain of Youth a Grade I for a short period of time a few years ago even though it's a prep for the Florida Derby). Not that this year is the best example, but the other thing that has hurt the Prioress in many years is its close proximity to the Azalea at Calder. Both races feed the Test nicely, but they also dilute each other.

I wouldn't agree that the Prioress is merely a "prep" for the Test. I don't think, generally speaking, horses, particularly sprinters, are really prepping from one race to the next in midseason. In the realm of strictly 3yo filly sprinters (which is by no means some mother lode of great racing talent) it lays a decent enough claim to its Grade 1 ranking. The last 4 runnings of the Prioress have produced at least one subsequent Grade 1 winner each. In several of the last few runnings, there has been at least one previous Grade 1 winner entered in the race. That's no mean feat when you mention that there are only a couple of Grade 1 races for the 3yo sprint division to begin with.

If the Test and the La Brea are drawing better fields a big part of it is the 7f distance each race is carded at. That will draw in several route types on top of the sprint population. The La Brea also has calendar position over the Prioress, being late in the year so that it draws in a lot of well meant comebackers, a few late bloomers, and also has the benefit of an extra 5 months whereby some horses that weren't accomplished around the time of the Prioress, suddenly are major stakes winners.

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

I wouldn't agree that the Prioress is merely a "prep" for the Test. I don't think, generally speaking, horses, particularly sprinters, are really prepping from one race to the next in midseason. In the realm of strictly 3yo filly sprinters (which is by no means some mother lode of great racing talent) it lays a decent enough claim to its Grade 1 ranking. The last 4 runnings of the Prioress have produced at least one subsequent Grade 1 winner each. In several of the last few runnings, there has been at least one previous Grade 1 winner entered in the race. That's no mean feat when you mention that there are only a couple of Grade 1 races for the 3yo sprint division to begin with.

It's not "merely a prep" for the Test, but when how often do you hear connections say that they are pointing to the Prioress? If you look at horses like Fanny Freud and Dream Rush, their connections had stated that they were pointing to the Test, and the Prioress was the bridge to get them there.

Maybe it's just a matter of how you view "Grade I" racing. To me, Grade I ratings should be reserved solely for "championship" quality races. (There are far too many that have the designation these days, but that's another discussion.) While the Test has generally had deep fields worthy of the designation, the Prioress has often not had fields of similar depth or quality. It's not to say that the Prioress is a "bad" race, I just don't believe it's worthy of a Grade I designation.

[JJP]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

To be fair, Dream Rush was very good, Fanny Freud as well ( don't forget she got hurt after the race and was retired but her resume holds up just fine for this to be a Grade 1..and Acorn/Test winner Champagne D'Oro was in there as well ). I don't have the complete fields, or all the race records, but overall, if you did a fair evaluation, this race holds up OK in that division.

The Gradings system is far from perfect, and there are many races that deserve reevaluation, but considering it is the only 6F Grade 1 for this division, I think it's grading is relatively warranted, if not moreso. What about the slew of synthetic races that got their Gradings when they were dirt races? Is the Spinster a better Grade 1, or worse, than the Prioress, since the switch in surfaces?

Simply put, you can't fairly cherry pick. The discussion needs to be had in its entirety. I am not saying I am against a serious regrading of US races. But, this race always draws these kinds of comments, and they are not as defendable as it may seem on the surface, and the Grading is far more justifiable than any number of annual races.

I agree 100% re: the synthetic races. The Blue Grass has become a joke. Maybe it looked like I was picking on the Prioress (which I am) but it isn't the only one. But it is a prime example of how the Graded Stakes committee appears to be asleep at the wheel. And when those Kee races are run again, this point will probably be revisited.

[Indian Charlie]

All this talk about downgrading g1s is pointless right now, because due to the lack of quality horses lately, there really aren't many grade 1 caliber races being run anywhere in the USA.

And by the word 'many', I'm being generous.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by JJP

I agree 100% re: the synthetic races. The Blue Grass has become a joke. Maybe it looked like I was picking on the Prioress (which I am) but it isn't the only one. But it is a prime example of how the Graded Stakes committee appears to be asleep at the wheel. And when those Kee races are run again, this point will probably be revisited.

It is not a " prime example " of how the Graded Stakes committee is " asleep at the wheel " and if you read the arguments after my post you will understand that better.

[JJP]

Why do 3 year old fillies need to have a Grade 1 at 6 furlongs? The best fillies invariably run in the longer races. And if there are 3 YO fillies worthy of Grade 1 quality sprinting, they can test their mettle against older horses.