Handle Decline Continues...

And there won't be a bailout. Horse racing isn't part of the PC umbrella of businesses that can't "fail"

It's just funny how some people have a positive outlook on the sport to this day. Like a crowd of over 14,000 with 33 million handle in a metropolis is somehow praiseworthy. Yeah it is when you compare only to the previous year. The overall decline is staggering.

[pointman]

The fact that the country has not recovered from the recession but the government continues to lie to people and claim that it has must be considered in any decline. The truth is that this country is still in a recession, people are hurting for money and don't have the money to play at the windows right now.

[Split Rock]

Originally Posted by pointman

The fact that the country has not recovered from the recession but the government continues to lie to people and claim that it has must be considered in any decline. The truth is that this country is still in a recession, people are hurting for money and don't have the money to play at the windows right now.

Pure and utter garbage. Just garbage. Yes, some people are hurting for money and those people would be hurting in a "good" economy, too.

Why can't people understand the real truth behind the staggering decline. It is almost parallel with the influx of illegal drugs in the game. Once big players started to feel the game was not legitimate, they left and are on to other things. When you take away enough huge players, the handle declines, the takeout raises, more people leave, less people win, etc.

I can't believe people don't understand that the trainers that are cheating and winning at 35, 45, 55 percent are doing so at the collapse of the game. The fact that trainers like Chambers, Guerrero, Ness, etc keep winning at this high rate means the game can't or won't clean it up. PED's mean speed carries. Speed that carries = even money at most tracks. AQU and SA are littered with $18 pick 4 payouts. All of this is killing the popularity of the game. Thus, real players will stay away.

Not hard to understand.

[Cannon Shell]

It is pretty simple. There has been very little economic recovery and the product presented has been bad. Not really that complicated.

[pointman]

Originally Posted by Split Rock

Pure and utter garbage. Just garbage. Yes, some people are hurting for money and those people would be hurting in a "good" economy, too.

Why can't people understand the real truth behind the staggering decline. It is almost parallel with the influx of illegal drugs in the game. Once big players started to feel the game was not legitimate, they left and are on to other things. When you take away enough huge players, the handle declines, the takeout raises, more people leave, less people win, etc.

I can't believe people don't understand that the trainers that are cheating and winning at 35, 45, 55 percent are doing so at the collapse of the game. The fact that trainers like Chambers, Guerrero, Ness, etc keep winning at this high rate means the game can't or won't clean it up. PED's mean speed carries. Speed that carries = even money at most tracks. AQU and SA are littered with $18 pick 4 payouts. All of this is killing the popularity of the game. Thus, real players will stay away.

Not hard to understand.

Let me guess, you have a government job? You got a raise in the last 2 to 3 years? The sector that I work in is particualry telling, the economy is not good and people don't have a lot of excess money right now. If you don't believe me, then explain why housing markets are not recovering. I did not state that the economy was the entire decline, just something that has to be factored into the equation.

As for the rest of your nonsense, while cheaters hurt the game to some extent, they have been around almost as long as the game and certainly were doing it when the game was in its so called heyday. I would love to hear when you believe the influx occurred that was parallel to the decline. Next you will tell us that the decline of on track attendance is more proof of the game's decline! Before you go accusing others of an inability to understand, you should look in the mirror.

[Split Rock]

Originally Posted by pointman

Let me guess, you have a government job? You got a raise in the last 2 to 3 years? The sector that I work in is particualry telling, the economy is not good and people don't have a lot of excess money right now. If you don't believe me, then explain why housing markets are not recovering. I did not state that the economy was the entire decline, just something that has to be factored into the equation.

As for the rest of your nonsense, while cheaters hurt the game to some extent, they have been around almost as long as the game and certainly were doing it when the game was in its so called heyday. I would love to hear when you believe the influx occurred that was parallel to the decline. Next you will tell us that the decline of on track attendance is more proof of the game's decline! Before you go accusing others of an inability to understand, you should look in the mirror.

Not going to debate the issue with you. You lost me at "...around almost as long as the game" nonsense. If you really believe cheating today is similar to what it was even 15 years ago, we are not going to have a legitimate discussion.

As far as the economy goes, I think you're the one with the government job. Make yourself more valuable and you'll earn more money, despite the market. Gambling almost always works independent of economic times. Sure, there might be moderate fluctuations but, the reality is, most gamblers will find the money to wager. They may not find the money to replace the moth eaten sweaters or toeless sneakers but they will find money to bet.

You cannot convince me that the casino industry is showing a decline. If economy was the issue, all gambling would be off. It's not.

[jms62]

Originally Posted by Split Rock

Not going to debate the issue with you. You lost me at "...around almost as long as the game" nonsense. If you really believe cheating today is similar to what it was even 15 years ago, we are not going to have a legitimate discussion.

As far as the economy goes, I think you're the one with the government job. Make yourself more valuable and you'll earn more money, despite the market. Gambling almost always works independent of economic times. Sure, there might be moderate fluctuations but, the reality is, most gamblers will find the money to wager. They may not find the money to replace the moth eaten sweaters or toeless sneakers but they will find money to bet.

You cannot convince me that the casino industry is showing a decline. If economy was the issue, all gambling would be off. It's not.

Dude an economy is not a few people making a ton of money. An economy is having a huge middle class with purchasing power to fuel the machine. Money = Fuel for the engine. An economy can not function with 2% of the people having 95% of the money. That is how it works in the third world. Full Disclousre, I am working making 6 figs and have never been unemployed. Also I don't don blinkers.

PS.

The casino industry is in utter ****ing shambles.

The casino industry has no one to blame but themselves. They are the ones who pushed riverboats everywhere.

And now they're shocked that Vegas and Atlantic City are on the verge of collapse? Duh, you f.ucking idiots. The heartland came to you...now they don't have to because of your greed.

[Split Rock]

Originally Posted by jms62

Dude an economy is not a few people making a ton of money. An economy is having a huge middle class with purchasing power to fuel the machine. Money = Fuel for the engine. An economy can not function with 2% of the people having 95% of the money. That is how it works in the third world. Full Disclousre, I am working making 6 figs and have never been unemployed. Also I don't don blinkers.

PS.

The casino industry is in utter ****ing shambles.

The casino industry is hardly in shambles. There are just too many of them now. The major difference is the entire pot of gambling dollars. The racing industry vs the casino industry (minus vegas). I'm talking tribal casinos here.

The point I'm trying to make is that racing is on the decline for MANY more reasons outside of the economy. I personally believe that as soon as the game became as shady as it is today (and I'm speaking 100% about the trainers that are using drugs to win) a large percentage of the BIG players simply went elsewhere with their money. That is what started the downward trend.

Regarding the economy, 2% making most of the wealth does suck. I too make 6 figs and never been unemployed but also feel, like you, that the rich vs. everyone else disparity is a joke. I just don't know how that relates to this discussion.

Bottom line is I'm so tired of hearing people blame racing's decline on the economy. It's like their saying the racing industry was doing so well and once the economy turned downward, racing started to decline. That is such a joke. While I believe the drug issue started the downward trend, racing as a whole has compounded the issue with absurd management and marketing.

[asudevil]

Originally Posted by Split Rock

Not going to debate the issue with you. You lost me at "...around almost as long as the game" nonsense. If you really believe cheating today is similar to what it was even 15 years ago, we are not going to have a legitimate discussion.

As far as the economy goes, I think you're the one with the government job. Make yourself more valuable and you'll earn more money, despite the market. Gambling almost always works independent of economic times. Sure, there might be moderate fluctuations but, the reality is, most gamblers will find the money to wager. They may not find the money to replace the moth eaten sweaters or toeless sneakers but they will find money to bet.

You cannot convince me that the casino industry is showing a decline. If economy was the issue, all gambling would be off. It's not.

Where have you been? Read this:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-0...tml?cmpid=yhoo

[Split Rock]

Originally Posted by asudevil

Where have you been? Read this:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-0...tml?cmpid=yhoo

Point? Atlantic City is being hit by casino expansion. Again, I'm talking about the nationwide casino dollars being spent vs. the nationwide racing dollars being spent. Racing is declining at a free fall rate. If the economy was the issue, overall gambling should be declining at the same rate.

Show me that article...

[pointman]

Originally Posted by Split Rock

Not going to debate the issue with you. You lost me at "...around almost as long as the game" nonsense. If you really believe cheating today is similar to what it was even 15 years ago, we are not going to have a legitimate discussion.

As far as the economy goes, I think you're the one with the government job. Make yourself more valuable and you'll earn more money, despite the market. Gambling almost always works independent of economic times. Sure, there might be moderate fluctuations but, the reality is, most gamblers will find the money to wager. They may not find the money to replace the moth eaten sweaters or toeless sneakers but they will find money to bet.

You cannot convince me that the casino industry is showing a decline. If economy was the issue, all gambling would be off. It's not.

I assure you that I don't have a government job and that I do quite well, in fact even in this bad environment this will easily be my best year yet, but I guess you weren't able to get my point in the first place. If you think drugging is a new thing than you are really lost, but you tipped that off as well by admitting that you got lost at that point. There was cheating going on 30, 40 years ago, even longer. In fact, there may have been more then as there was little to no detection methods back then.

I am tired of the doom and gloom from people like you. Horseracing will get through the bad economy, the trainers that give their horses illicit drugs and will be around for a long time. The real problem is the competition it has had from other sports gaining popularity and taking TV time, competition from the casinos for the gambling dollar which are popping up everywhere and the watered down product caused by trainers keeping their horses in the barns instread of running them creating much smaller fields. Then there is a reason that explains a large portion of the decline, the fact that the largest bet taker in the country of Thoroghbred racing was in business March of last year and is out of business March of this year. It is going to take some time to recover all of those lost players. While the cheating contributes to it, it is not the major factor for recent declines as you unwittingly claim.

The casino industry thought it was economy proof until the last few years. They have had declines in the last two to three years despite the fact that States have legalized gambling allowing it in places never before which should have increased the revenue. That said, most casinos are still seeing declines and the ones that aren't are barely gaining if at all. But go ahead, keep telling everyone the sport is going into the s.hit.ter.

[Split Rock]

Originally Posted by pointman

I assure you that I don't have a government job and that I do quite well, in fact even in this bad environment this will easily be my best year yet, but I guess you weren't able to get my point in the first place. If you think drugging is a new thing than you are really lost, but you tipped that off as well by admitting that you got lost at that point. There was cheating going on 30, 40 years ago, even longer. In fact, there may have been more then as there was little to no detection methods back then.

I am tired of the doom and gloom from people like you. Horseracing will get through the bad economy, the trainers that give their horses illicit drugs and will be around for a long time. The real problem is the competition it has had from other sports gaining popularity and taking TV time, competition from the casinos for the gambling dollar which are popping up everywhere and the watered down product caused by trainers keeping their horses in the barns instread of running them creating much smaller fields. Then there is a reason that explains a large portion of the decline, the fact that the largest bet taker in the country of Thoroghbred racing was in business March of last year and is out of business March of this year. It is going to take some time to recover all of those lost players. While the cheating contributes to it, it is not the major factor for recent declines as you unwittingly claim.

The casino industry thought it was economy proof until the last few years. They have had declines in the last two to three years despite the fact that States have legalized gambling allowing it in places never before which should have increased the revenue. That said, most casinos are still seeing declines and the ones that aren't are barely gaining if at all. But go ahead, keep telling everyone the sport is going into the s.hit.ter.

"....the sport is going into the s.hit.ter" To think it's not is absurd. It is not people like me and all my doom and gloom that is the problem. It is people that make excuses for those that cause it to be all doom and gloom. I've followed horse racing since 1986. I can tell you the game has never been as blatantly corrupt as it is now. You can choose to think it isn't or choose to think that doesn't affect the state is in now. I choose to believe it does. If it isn't the main reason for the start of the decline of horse racing, it certainly has contributed to it.

I'm sure many that read my posts will think I just have an axe to grind about the drug issue. Well, whenever I look at PP's and see guys winning with broken animals and instead of going to prison where they belong for committing a felonious act of tampering with a pari-mutual wagering event, they are praised, it sickens me.

The game is on the decline. Unfortunately, I cannot do a damn thing to stop it short of taking symbolic stance.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Split Rock

If you really believe cheating today is similar to what it was even 15 years ago, we are not going to have a legitimate discussion.

LOl How exactly do you measure this?

[Split Rock]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

LOl How exactly do you measure this?

Why do I need to measure it?

[jms62]

Originally Posted by Split Rock

Pure and utter garbage. Just garbage. Yes, some people are hurting for money and those people would be hurting in a "good" economy, too.

Why can't people understand the real truth behind the staggering decline. It is almost parallel with the influx of illegal drugs in the game. Once big players started to feel the game was not legitimate, they left and are on to other things. When you take away enough huge players, the handle declines, the takeout raises, more people leave, less people win, etc.

I can't believe people don't understand that the trainers that are cheating and winning at 35, 45, 55 percent are doing so at the collapse of the game. The fact that trainers like Chambers, Guerrero, Ness, etc keep winning at this high rate means the game can't or won't clean it up. PED's mean speed carries. Speed that carries = even money at most tracks. AQU and SA are littered with $18 pick 4 payouts. All of this is killing the popularity of the game. Thus, real players will stay away.

Not hard to understand.

Your post was interesting. I first read

Pure and utter garbage. Just garbage. Yes, some people are hurting for money and those people would be hurting in a "good" economy, too.

My thoughts were this guy is absolutely clueless. My guess he is retired and his sole source of information is the headlines.

Then I read the second part and I must say what you are saying has merit. Add a bad economy to that and the sad state of racing is easier to understand. The problem is that the powers that be are old-****s a couple years away from retirement and they would rather scavange the carcass of racing then take any sort of risk whatsover or give up any of their power base whatsover.