Greatest Living Racehorse?

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

But why? What I appreciated about Ghostzapper more than anything else besides his utter brilliance was his versatility. He could literally run at any pace from any part of the track. What evidence is there that he was vulnerable to pace at ANY distance?

I only suggested he was vulnerable at classic distances.

As he started just 3 times at 9f or more (and even then only twice around 2 turns), the evidence is certainly scant.

But in the 2004 Woodward, where he was under pressure through fast fractions, Ghostzapper was life and death to edge an, up to that point, unheralded St. Liam.

In 3 of Ghostzapper's last 4 starts, he earned a Beyer speed figure of 122 or more. The only exception was the Woodward, where he recorded at 114.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

I only suggested he was vulnerable at classic distances.

As he started just 3 times at 9f or more (and even then only twice around 2 turns), the evidence is certainly scant.

But in the 2004 Woodward, where he was under pressure through fast fractions, Ghostzapper was life and death to edge an, up to that point, unheralded St. Liam.

In 3 of Ghostzapper's last 4 starts, he earned a Beyer speed figure of 122 or more. The only exception was the Woodward, where he recorded at 114.

In the iselin, he rated kindly off of 22/45/109 going two turns against a horse that was lone speed on a sloppy track that is known to favor speed. Doesn't that refute your theory?

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

In the iselin, he rated kindly off of 22/45/109 going two turns against a horse that was lone speed on a sloppy track that is known to favor speed. Doesn't that refute your theory?

I wouldn't call Presidentialaffair or Zoffinger or Private Lap top class rivals.

Ghostzapper would have no business losing that race under any circumstances.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

I wouldn't call Presidentialaffair or Zoffinger or Private Lap top class rivals.

Ghostzapper would have no business losing that race under any circumstances.

Ghostzapper ran a 128 under those conditions in the iselin. If you want to use the 114 beyer as support, can't I use the 128 to contradict regardless of opposition?

He ran his lifetime best beyer around two turns against a speedball. Doesn't this refute your theory?

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Ghostzapper ran a 128 under those conditions in the iselin. If you want to use the 114 beyer as support, can't I use the 128 to contradict regardless of opposition?

He ran his lifetime best beyer around two turns against a speedball. Doesn't this refute your theory?

But I am regarding the opposition, else I would probably agree with you.

Ghostzapper had plenty of speed himself. I would suggest that a speed-favoring track (Monmouth), a generally speed-favoring track condition (sloppy), and a small field (4 horses) of undeniably inferior horses were ideal conditions for any Grade 1 calibur monster to run a lifetime top Beyer.

Maybe if GZ had done enough up to that point to warrant an assignment of 131 lbs in the Iselin (the way Skip Away was in '98), then the matter of opposition wouldn't be as relevant.

Of course, he never would have run with that kind of weight assignment, either, so long as Frankel was training him.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

But I am regarding the opposition, else I would probably agree with you.

Ghostzapper had plenty of speed himself. I would suggest that a speed-favoring track (Monmouth), a generally speed-favoring track condition (sloppy), and a small field (4 horses) of undeniably inferior horses were ideal conditions for any Grade 1 calibur monster to run a lifetime top Beyer.

Maybe if GZ had done enough up to that point to warrant an assignment of 131 lbs in the Iselin (the way Skip Away was in '98), then the matter of opposition wouldn't be as relevant.

Of course, he never would have run with that kind of weight assignment, either, so long as Frankel was training him.

I thought your contention was that he was susceptible to pace. If your point is that a horse like Kentucky roses in may would give gz a battle, I agree but it had little to do with distance or running style. Krim was just a darn nice horse. So was st liam for that matter.

GZ ran two races around two turns. One he stalked and one he wired. I can't draw any conclusions about vulnerability from either of those two races especially considering he beyered 128 and 124 respectively. What would make you think he couldn't have sat mid pack or even closed?

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

I thought your contention was that he was susceptible to pace. If your point is that a horse like Kentucky roses in may would give gz a battle, I agree but it had little to do with distance or running style. Krim was just a darn nice horse. So was st liam for that matter.

GZ ran two races around two turns. One he stalked and one he wired. I can't draw any conclusions about vulnerability from either of those two races especially considering he beyered 128 and 124 respectively. What would make you think he couldn't have sat mid pack or even closed?

Not exactly.
Roses in May was a darn nice horse.
Krim was....umm....something else.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

I thought your contention was that he was susceptible to pace

No, throughout I made a point of saying that he could be made vulnerable by "other quality speed". I wouldn't count Presidentialaffair amongst those (even if he should be, it wouldn't have mattered in the '04 Iselin--there was nobody behind capable of reaping the benefits).

If Roses In May and St. Liam were capable of giving GZ a battle, then certainly it's possible that another quality horse with a closing style would be a threat to him from behind. He never had to face such a scenario. The Iselin field was a joke, the Woodward was (suprisingly, I might add) a match race, and IMO the Classic was a merry-go-round affair.

GZ ran two races around two turns. One he stalked and one he wired. I can't draw any conclusions about vulnerability from either of those two races especially considering he beyered 128 and 124 respectively. What would make you think he couldn't have sat mid pack or even closed?

Ghostzapper was capable of running 3/4s in 1:08 and change. Typically, those horses don't sit in the back in route races. In his 3 routes he was never more than 1.5 away.

As for his two turn races, they were run under ideal conditions for him. Ironically, the Classic shouldn't have gone his way, and yet it did. It would have been interesting to see him overcome some unfavorable race dynamics routing. You can argue that he did in the Woodward, but at the same time, on the basis of BSF and winning margin, it exposed some chinks in the armor.

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

I only suggested he was vulnerable at classic distances.

As he started just 3 times at 9f or more (and even then only twice around 2 turns), the evidence is certainly scant.

But in the 2004 Woodward, where he was under pressure through fast fractions, Ghostzapper was life and death to edge an, up to that point, unheralded St. Liam.

In 3 of Ghostzapper's last 4 starts, he earned a Beyer speed figure of 122 or more. The only exception was the Woodward, where he recorded at 114.

GZ's 114 in the Woodward shouldn't be taken as any kind of negative move. How many extra lengths did GZ run around the final turn compared to his other route races? I'd have to re-watch the Woodward, but I think 6-8 extra lengths is a conservative estimate. How many Beyer points do 6-8 lengths translate to? 10-13? If so, then the 114 is the equivalent of a sweet-trip 124-127, which is on a par with GZ's other routes.

--Dunbar

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by Dunbar

GZ's 114 in the Woodward shouldn't be taken as any kind of negative move. How many extra lengths did GZ run around the final turn compared to his other route races? I'd have to re-watch the Woodward, but I think 6-8 extra lengths is a conservative estimate. How many Beyer points do 6-8 lengths translate to? 10-13? If so, then the 114 is the equivalent of a sweet-trip 124-127, which is on a par with GZ's other routes.

--Dunbar

spoken like someone who actually watched the race.

For the last time, Ghostzapper's running style was not headstrong or stubborn. His only quirk was that he didn't like dirt in his face. He was forwardly placed in his three route races (only one of which he led at first call) because it made sense in all three. In a race with a ton of quality speed, he could be taken off the pace so long as he was kept in the clear. This is apparent to anybody who has watched him run.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

For the last time, Ghostzapper's running style was not headstrong or stubborn. His only quirk was that he didn't like dirt in his face. He was forwardly placed in his three route races (only one of which he led at first call) because it made sense in all three. In a race with a ton of quality speed, he could be taken off the pace so long as he was kept in the clear. This is apparent to anybody who has watched him run.

Of course, no one ever said he was "headstrong" or "stubborn".

Nevertheless, please explain why it made sense for Ghostzapper to be up on the engine between St. Liam (12-1) and Presidentialaffair (37-1)--never mind Midway Road's brief 1/4 mile effort--through fractions of :45+ and 1:08+ in the Woodward if he could be positioned anywhere in a race (so long as he was in the clear, of course).

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Of course, no one ever said he was "headstrong" or "stubborn".

Nevertheless, please explain why it made sense for Ghostzapper to be up on the engine between St. Liam (12-1) and Presidentialaffair (37-1)--never mind Midway Road's brief 1/4 mile effort--through fractions of :45+ and 1:08+ in the Woodward if he could be positioned anywhere in a race (so long as he was in the clear, of course).

Give it up Rollo.

GZ had some Zenyatta fan like fans in his day that you could not discuss anything logically with.

I say that in the sense that I still believe GZ was an awesome horse, nor do I think the GZ fans were nearly as bad as the Zenyatta fans.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Give it up Rollo.

GZ had some Zenyatta fan like fans in his day that you could not discuss anything logically with.

I say that in the sense that I still believe GZ was an awesome horse, nor do I think the GZ fans were nearly as bad as the Zenyatta fans.

Well - Thoro-Graph did have him about 28 lengths faster than Alysheba.

[RockHardTen1985]

I think the greatest living racehorse is Indian Charlie, hands down.