Who was closer to the Triple Crown...Smarty or Alex?

Originally Posted by oracle80

Noone hates this horse. I think that the superlatives being thrown around without beating a good or large field or setting any track records has caused the polarity between the worshippers and those who dont worship him.

Those who worship the horse think those who don't are irrational, and vice versa.

I can't wait for the BC to be run and hope he stamps himself one way of the other.
A narrow loss with a troubled trip is my worst nightmare as we will have to listen to the debate over how good he was for decades.
Lets let him get it on, and have the final judgement come after the last chapter in the book is written.

It really isnt his fault that he hasnt beaten a large field or a good field. He has run in the biggest races for three year olds except for the Derby and Belmont. He also ran in one of the biggest races for older horses as well. So you cant fault the horse for his competition. You can only judge by what the horses does in the races he competes in.

Also, he really hasnt been asked in any of his races to set a track record. The Travers and JCGC he was freaking jogging the entire time. I judge a horse based on what he does in big races regardless of his competition. Also, the fact that so many trainers dont want to face tells me they also think he is the best horse out there. That speaks volumes to me.

Dini should be regarded as the best race horse in training today based on fact, not what if or what should be scenarios.

Originally Posted by eurobounce

It really isnt his fault that he hasnt beaten a large field or a good field. He has run in the biggest races for three year olds except for the Derby and Belmont. He also ran in one of the biggest races for older horses as well. So you cant fault the horse for his competition. You can only judge by what the horses does in the races he competes in.

Also, he really hasnt been asked in any of his races to set a track record. The Travers and JCGC he was freaking jogging the entire time. I judge a horse based on what he does in big races regardless of his competition. Also, the fact that so many trainers dont want to face tells me they also think he is the best horse out there. That speaks volumes to me.

Dini should be regarded as the best race horse in training today based on fact, not what if or what should be scenarios.

The notion that he could have run much faster in either of his last two "if asked" is something I don't buy.
Historically based on FACTS as you say, Ragozins guys have done vast studies(I dont know if TG and Jerry Brown have, I assume they have) on horses and their best and fastest races, and concluded solidly that hores run their fastest races under no pressure in "easy wins".
Its something I first became aware of in 1992, and have used that as a guideline ever since then, much to my advantage.
I also used to conclude off an easy win that a horse was "just jogging" or could have gone much faster, but I was wrong.
If you check out horses and their performances, they run their best races "while jogging". Smarty Jones preakness comes to mind. He earned his best number that day.
I'm not sold that he can go faster, but it may not be necessary for him to go faster on Cup Day.

[Seattleallstar]

I never got that Orahole, why is it they run these fast times while jogging then everyone says they have another gear and so on, they could of run faster. But then when they are finally being worked on and whipped to no end they do not end up running faster.

Originally Posted by Seattleallstar

I never got that Orahole, why is it they run these fast times while jogging then everyone says they have another gear and so on, they could of run faster. But then when they are finally being worked on and whipped to no end they do not end up running faster.

The whip will get you a length, tops, according to the finest jockeys.
Its a fallacy that the whip can get you so many lengths.
Also, most horses run best when they are free and running how they wanna run with no pressure alongside of them.
Its a different story when another horse gets in your face and you have to quicken NOW instead of when you wanna quicken.
I can't recall too many horses who "jogged" in a big stakes race who then came back and ran better in a dogfight.
If anyone can, name them.

[Seattleallstar]

hey Oracle ive mellowed out as of late, I think im a new man

Originally Posted by Seattleallstar

hey Oracle ive mellowed out as of late, I think im a new man

I've heard this same story 1000 times. Go a month without a meltdown for a change and then we can talk about you being a new man. I sure wouldn't bet money on that.

[Seattleallstar]

I dont like or care to hear from Ashley anymore, ive had it

Originally Posted by oracle80

The whip will get you a length, tops, according to the finest jockeys.
Its a fallacy that the whip can get you so many lengths.
Also, most horses run best when they are free and running how they wanna run with no pressure alongside of them.
Its a different story when another horse gets in your face and you have to quicken NOW instead of when you wanna quicken.
I can't recall too many horses who "jogged" in a big stakes race who then came back and ran better in a dogfight.
If anyone can, name them.

Whip will get you about 1 length is very accurate I believe. I have heard some say it can get you 2 at times.

Originally Posted by eurobounce

Whip will get you about 1 length is very accurate I believe. I have heard some say it can get you 2 at times.

I've never heard more than 1 but you get the point anyways.

We all have our own opinions on particular horses, but to digress... I believe Bernardini will run huge in the BCC. Even the conservatives admire and respect this horse; people like Mike Watchmaker and Todd Pletcher are on the list.

Originally Posted by oracle80

The notion that he could have run much faster in either of his last two "if asked" is something I don't buy.
Historically based on FACTS as you say, Ragozins guys have done vast studies(I dont know if TG and Jerry Brown have, I assume they have) on horses and their best and fastest races, and concluded solidly that hores run their fastest races under no pressure in "easy wins".
Its something I first became aware of in 1992, and have used that as a guideline ever since then, much to my advantage.
I also used to conclude off an easy win that a horse was "just jogging" or could have gone much faster, but I was wrong.
If you check out horses and their performances, they run their best races "while jogging". Smarty Jones preakness comes to mind. He earned his best number that day.
I'm not sold that he can go faster, but it may not be necessary for him to go faster on Cup Day.

I understand what you are saying and agree to a certain extent. But he hasnt needed to go fast. I certainly think he can go faster. I dont think he needs to go all that fast to win the Classic.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by oracle80

The notion that he could have run much faster in either of his last two "if asked" is something I don't buy.
Historically based on FACTS as you say, Ragozins guys have done vast studies(I dont know if TG and Jerry Brown have, I assume they have) on horses and their best and fastest races, and concluded solidly that hores run their fastest races under no pressure in "easy wins".
Its something I first became aware of in 1992, and have used that as a guideline ever since then, much to my advantage.
I also used to conclude off an easy win that a horse was "just jogging" or could have gone much faster, but I was wrong.
If you check out horses and their performances, they run their best races "while jogging". Smarty Jones preakness comes to mind. He earned his best number that day.
I'm not sold that he can go faster, but it may not be necessary for him to go faster on Cup Day.

How would you explain a horse like Saint Liam then? He only ran his best numbers if heavily pressed (not that his others sucked).

Originally Posted by Sightseek

How would you explain a horse like Saint Liam then? He only ran his best numbers if heavily pressed (not that his others sucked).

I don't know that I agree with that.
His Foster was freaky fast on the sheets and he "jogged" in that race.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by oracle80

I don't know that I agree with that.
His Foster was freaky fast on the sheets and he "jogged" in that race.

Did they adjust the Beyer for his race against Zapper? I thought it was higher than 114, which tied his best two performances while having the race all to himself:

http://www.drf.com/row/pps/saintliam.pdf

The Whitney was obscene. It is funny how people seem all the more ready to crown Bernardini as great and hated on Saint Liam when Bernie hasn't run a race like SL.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

Did they adjust the Beyer for his race against Zapper? I thought it was higher than 114, which tied his best two performances while having the race all to himself:

http://www.drf.com/row/pps/saintliam.pdf

The Whitney was obscene. It is funny how people seem all the more ready to crown Bernardini as great and hated on Saint Liam when Bernie hasn't run a race like SL.

I know on the equibase numbers that the Woodward was right up there with Ghostzapper's best figure wise. The Beyer came in low, I'd guess in part because at the time no one believed Saint Liam was capable of running a 120 figure so just assumed GZ ran a poor race (by his standards).

Originally Posted by Sightseek

Did they adjust the Beyer for his race against Zapper? I thought it was higher than 114, which tied his best two performances while having the race all to himself:

http://www.drf.com/row/pps/saintliam.pdf

The Whitney was obscene. It is funny how people seem all the more ready to crown Bernardini as great and hated on Saint Liam when Bernie hasn't run a race like SL.

His Whitney was indeed pretty sensational.
So was his Woodward.
So were a lot of his races.

Originally Posted by Sightseek

Did they adjust the Beyer for his race against Zapper? I thought it was higher than 114, which tied his best two performances while having the race all to himself:

http://www.drf.com/row/pps/saintliam.pdf

The Whitney was obscene. It is funny how people seem all the more ready to crown Bernardini as great and hated on Saint Liam when Bernie hasn't run a race like SL.

You are missing the point--he hasnt needed to run a race like that is the point. He is so good that his less than best performance is good enough to win by open lengths.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by eurobounce

You are missing the point--he hasnt needed to run a race like that is the point. He is so good that his less than best performance is good enough to win by open lengths.

I guess that is where Bernardini's competition supports the "but, who did he beat?" folks. Would he run faster if facing a Ghostzapper or have we seen Bernie's best?