Shirreffs says Zenyatta deserves '10 Horse of the Year

[Thunder Gulch]

Anyone outside of the nutty Zenyatta fans- and there are a lot of them- has enough common sense to know she can't lose to Blame, QR, or even Lucky and still win HOY. If an outsider wins, she has a good shot even though it's pretty clear that she hasn't had the best campaign (2010) to this point. If she wins it's hers. Hopefully it won't set the precedent for how to win the award in the future by ducking competition until the end, but there would be no way to deny her if it's won on this track.

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by Thunder Gulch

Hopefully it won't set the precedent for how to win the award in the future by ducking competition until the end, but there would be no way to deny her if it's won on this track.

I think this is where we sometimes can get into a bit of a double standard.

I 100% agree that her 2010 campaign has been weak for a HOTY candidate because typically HOTY goes to a horse that competed in either the Triple Crown races and/or a series of Grade 1 races open to older males. It's rare that a mare is even in the conversation.

Right or wrong, she's part of the conversation partly because of her overall record and partly because of her win in the Classic last year.

The thing is, no one required mares like Personal Ensign, Bayakoa, Go for Wand, etc... to compete in Grade 1 races open to males all year long before getting any respect and none of those all time greats even considered running in the Classic. So they more or less took themselves out of consideration for HOTY unless all the males sucked. Zenyatta is taking a shot.

I think the Classic is one part of the overall picture and should probably be weighed the strongest because other than the Derby (restricted to 3YOs) it's the only race where all the best horses around the world get together. So it's typically by far the highest quality race of the year.

How you weigh it vs. other accomplishments is open to debate, but I don't think a mare should be punished for doing as much or more than some of the other great mares before her. They all primarily run against their own sex and take a selective shot here or there against top males and it's usually a weak field. Some don't even go that far. Only Azeri tried the Classic. I don't think the standard should be that any mare that wants consideration should have to compete against Grade 1 males all year long. It's not going to happen when there are easier pickings and lower demands on the horses staying with their own sex most of the season.

The few exceptions are 3YO fillies that compete in Triple Crown preps and the actual Triple Crown races against other 3YOs. The reason that happens more often is that fillies tend to develop sooner than colts and are often competitive with 3YO colts UNTIL later in the season when the colts develop further and move past them.

[the_fat_man]

Say what you want about Smooth Operator, however, keep in mind that:

1) he wasn't gaga over RA --- how'd her season turn out? RA the RD (Roberto Duran) of the TBRED set. No mas, baby.

2) nor was he ever on the QR bandwagon --- notice how his many supporters are no longer beating their chest about how he'll have no trouble going 10F. In fact, they're now pushing the OPPOSITE. Now, that's prescience.


I know one thing: If I were pushing 1 and 2, and heavily, on these forums, I'd STFU for the rest of the year and not worry about Z or what her connections or her supporters were doing.

[Smooth Operator]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

Say what you want about Smooth Operator, however, keep in mind that:

1) he wasn't gaga over RA --- how'd her season turn out? RA the RD (Roberto Duran) of the TBRED set. No mas, baby.

2) nor was he ever on the QR bandwagon --- notice how his many supporters are no longer beating their chest about how he'll have no trouble going 10F. In fact, they're now pushing the OPPOSITE. Now, that's prescience.


I know one thing: If I were pushing 1 and 2, and heavily, on these forums, I'd STFU for the rest of the year and not worry about Z or what her connections or her supporters were doing.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

I think this is where we sometimes can get into a bit of a double standard.

I 100% agree that her 2010 campaign has been weak for a HOTY candidate because typically HOTY goes to a horse that competed in either the Triple Crown races and/or a series of Grade 1 races open to older males. It's rare that a mare is even in the conversation.

Right or wrong, she's part of the conversation partly because of her overall record and partly because of her win in the Classic last year.

The thing is, no one required mares like Personal Ensign, Bayakoa, Go for Wand, etc... to compete in Grade 1 races open to males all year long before getting any respect and none of those all time greats even considered running in the Classic. So they more or less took themselves out of consideration for HOTY unless all the males sucked. Zenyatta is taking a shot.

I think the Classic is one part of the overall picture and should probably be weighed the strongest because other than the Derby (restricted to 3YOs) it's the only race where all the best horses around the world get together. So it's typically by far the highest quality race of the year.

How you weigh it vs. other accomplishments is open to debate, but I don't think a mare should be punished for doing as much or more than some of the other great mares before her. They all primarily run against their own sex and take a selective shot here or there against top males and it's usually a weak field. Some don't even go that far. Only Azeri tried the Classic. I don't think the standard should be that any mare that wants consideration should have to compete against Grade 1 males all year long. It's not going to happen when there are easier pickings and lower demands on the horses staying with their own sex most of the season.

The few exceptions are 3YO fillies that compete in Triple Crown preps and the actual Triple Crown races against other 3YOs. The reason that happens more often is that fillies tend to develop sooner than colts and are often competitive with 3YO colts UNTIL later in the season when the colts develop further and move past them.

personal ensign faced and defeated males, including eclipse award winner gulch before running in the distaff and defeating the ky derby/santa anita derby winner. she also retired undefeated, a perfect 13 for 13. alysheba got HOY, and deservedly so. i don't recall if PE was even mentioned as being in the running. zenyatta shouldn't be in the running at this point at all, not with what she's done this year. the only thing her connections are hanging their hats on is her 19/19 record. she didn't accomplish all that this year. if blame or QR wins the classic, her trainer can politic all he wishes. she wouldn't deserve to win, or even get in the voting, based on this years races-and isn't that what the award is for?

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Danzig

personal ensign faced and defeated males, including eclipse award winner gulch before running in the distaff and defeating the ky derby/santa anita derby winner. she also retired undefeated, a perfect 13 for 13. alysheba got HOY, and deservedly so. i don't recall if PE was even mentioned as being in the running. zenyatta shouldn't be in the running at this point at all, not with what she's done this year. the only thing her connections are hanging their hats on is her 19/19 record. she didn't accomplish all that this year. if blame or QR wins the classic, her trainer can politic all he wishes. she wouldn't deserve to win, or even get in the voting, based on this years races-and isn't that what the award is for?

Personal Ensign was never in that HOY discussion, though in all fairness, Alysheba had a great year ( and much better than anyone this year ).

[Port Conway Lane]

http://www.nytimes.com/1989/01/29/sp...e-of-1988.html
The filly got 40 votes,Risen Star one vote.

[alysheba4]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Personal Ensign was never in that HOY discussion, though in all fairness, Alysheba had a great year ( and much better than anyone this year ).

....i thought she was if she won and sheba didnt fire.

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by Danzig

personal ensign faced and defeated males, including eclipse award winner gulch before running in the distaff and defeating the ky derby/santa anita derby winner. she also retired undefeated, a perfect 13 for 13. alysheba got HOY, and deservedly so. i don't recall if PE was even mentioned as being in the running. zenyatta shouldn't be in the running at this point at all, not with what she's done this year. the only thing her connections are hanging their hats on is her 19/19 record. she didn't accomplish all that this year. if blame or QR wins the classic, her trainer can politic all he wishes. she wouldn't deserve to win, or even get in the voting, based on this years races-and isn't that what the award is for?

I agree.

The connections of PE picked a 3 horse field with Gulch being the major competitor (not the best horse in the country) to take their single shot against boys. I don't criticize it because that's the way it has typically been done in the US when mares face older Grade 1 colts. They look for an easy spot here or there or don't do it at all.

Rachel took on the best 3YOs, but when it came time to take on older males she took on Bullsbay and Macho Again (the 4th string). Again, nothing to criticize.

Zenyatta is the only one that is held to the standard of having to run against the best males a lot of the time or get trashed. It's a double standard.

[Port Conway Lane]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

I agree.

The connections of PE picked a 3 horse field with Gulch being the major competitor (not the best horse in the country) to take their single shot against boys. I don't criticize it because that's the way it has typically been done in the US when mares face older Grade 1 colts. They look for an easy spot here or there or don't do it at all.

Rachel took on the best 3YOs, but when it came time to take on older males she took on Bullsbay and Macho Again (the 4th string). Again, nothing to criticize.

Zenyatta is the only one that is held to the standard of having to run against the best males a lot of the time or get trashed. It's a double standard.

How do you pick a 3 horse field ?

[slotdirt]

I think the point people are missing is that Zenyatta runs on the astroturf of horse racing while every single other horse mentioned in this thread ran their entire careers over a natural racing surface. When pro-ride or tapeta or polytrack go the way of the dodo bird in the next 20 years, we will really have no idea how good Zenyatta would have been good over dirt or grass.

The handicap division now sucks so much more than it did when Personal Ensign or Lady's Secret were running. I think that's a major reason why so many bombs are lobbed her way, because by running against Switch and Rinterval 17 of 19 times she's hit the track, who is she really avoiding? Richard's Kid?

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

The connections of PE picked a 3 horse field with Gulch being the major competitor (not the best horse in the country) to take their single shot against boys.

These are the kinds of idiotic comments that I just love.

This comment implies that Personal Ensign's connection spent the year waiting for a major Grade 1 to have only two other entries and then slipped in at the least minute.

By the way, at 1 1/8 miles, Zenyatta wouldn't have had an easy time handling Gulch, and certainly wouldn't have done it on her 2010 form.

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

This comment implies that Personal Ensign's connection spent the year waiting for a major Grade 1 to have only two other entries and then slipped in at the least minute.

That's exactly right.

They wanted to test her against males eventually and Gulch was a very good horse, but they also were selective about it. They could have picked a race they knew Alysheba, Ferndinand, Bet Twice, Lost Code etc.. would be in.

They could have gone in the Classic instead of the Distaff.

The difference between me and others is that I don't trash the connections of PE for avoiding the best males and choosing the Distaff when she was fit and ready to go for the Classic. I realize that many of the greatest mares never even tried older Grade 1 horses and others tried and got demolished.

Azeri tried - demolished
Bayakoa tried - demolished
Dance Smartly - successful but only in Canada
Go for Wand - never tried it.
Paseana - demolished
Sky Beauty - never tried it
Inside Information - never tried it
Heavenly Prize - tried once and was well beaten by Cigar & Wekiva Springs
Silver Bullet Lady - demolished in Belmont

[slotdirt]

Sweet Jesus. Has classhandicapper never watched a race ran before 1989 or one that wasn't run in North America?

[Clip-Clop]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

That's exactly right.

They wanted to test her against males eventually and Gulch was a very good horse, but they also were selective about it. They could have picked a race they knew Alysheba, Ferndinand, Bet Twice, Lost Code etc.. would be in.

They could have gone in the Classic instead of the Distaff.

The difference between me and others is that I don't trash the connections of PE for avoiding the best males and choosing the Distaff when she was fit and ready to go for the Classic. I realize that many of the greatest mares never even tried older Grade 1 horses and others tried and got demolished.

Azeri tried - demolished
Bayakoa tried - demolished
Dance Smartly - successful but only in Canada
Go for Wand - never tried it.
Paseana - demolished
Sky Beauty - never tried it
Inside Information - never tried it
Heavenly Prize - tried once and was well beaten by Cigar & Wekiva Springs
Silver Bullet Lady - demolished in Belmont

Actually ran a pretty good race considering that field. I know that was nowhere near as good as last years Classic field but running 5th beating the Derby, Preakness, Belmont, Travers etc. winners) in there was pretty impressive for a horse with nothing to prove.

[JerseyJ]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

That's exactly right.

They wanted to test her against males eventually and Gulch was a very good horse, but they also were selective about it. They could have picked a race they knew Alysheba, Ferndinand, Bet Twice, Lost Code etc.. would be in.

They could have gone in the Classic instead of the Distaff.

The difference between me and others is that I don't trash the connections of PE for avoiding the best males and choosing the Distaff when she was fit and ready to go for the Classic. I realize that many of the greatest mares never even tried older Grade 1 horses and others tried and got demolished.

Azeri tried - demolished
Bayakoa tried - demolished
Dance Smartly - successful but only in Canada
Go for Wand - never tried it.
Paseana - demolished
Sky Beauty - never tried it
Inside Information - never tried it
Heavenly Prize - tried once and was well beaten by Cigar & Wekiva Springs
Silver Bullet Lady - demolished in Belmont

There was no reason for the connections of Personal Ensign to choose the Classic, seeing the field that lined up in the starting gate for the 1988 Distaff, each of whom would have been tough for Zenyatta to run down. Winning Colors, Goodbye Halo, Sham Say, Classic Crown, Hail a Cab, Epitome, Willa on the Move, and Integra made up what could be considered the deepest field in the history of the Breeders Cup distaff so there was no real reason to run that year.

You say that Azeri got demolished in her run in 2004. She also faced Ghostzapper who was arguably the best horse we have seen in recent memory. Also faced Dubai World Cup winner Roses in May, BC Classic defending Champion Pleasantly Perfect, and she ran a pretty good race, mind you as a 6 year old. I would put money that Zenyatta wouldn't have finished any closer that year than Azeri did.

You act like Zenyatta did something amazing winning the Breeders Cup Classic over her favorite surface while getting a favorable setup over one of the weakest fields in recent memory in the race. Last year's classic featured decent turf/synthetic specialists such as Gio Ponti, Twice Over, Richard's Kid, Rip Van Winkle and such, and mediocre dirt runners or mediocre 3YOs like Colonel John, Awesome Gem, Mine that Bird, and Regal Ransom. The best dirt runner in the race at a clear disadvantage due to surface was Summer Bird, and the next best was probably Einstein, who as we all know was a neat horse, but hardly a standard for greatness. So that certainly wasn't in my estimation a strong field last year.

But should we expect anything different from someone who believes that Hystericalady was just as good on synthetics as she was on dirt...

[Pedigree Ann]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

That's exactly right.

They wanted to test her against males eventually and Gulch was a very good horse, but they also were selective about it. They could have picked a race they knew Alysheba, Ferndinand, Bet Twice, Lost Code etc.. would be in.

They could have gone in the Classic instead of the Distaff.

The difference between me and others is that I don't trash the connections of PE for avoiding the best males and choosing the Distaff when she was fit and ready to go for the Classic. I realize that many of the greatest mares never even tried older Grade 1 horses and others tried and got demolished.

Azeri tried - demolished
Bayakoa tried - demolished
Dance Smartly - successful but only in Canada
Go for Wand - never tried it.
Paseana - demolished
Sky Beauty - never tried it
Inside Information - never tried it
Heavenly Prize - tried once and was well beaten by Cigar & Wekiva Springs
Silver Bullet Lady - demolished in Belmont

Relaxing - finished a good third to John Henry
Susan's Girl - demolished
Typecast - won at 12f turf
Drumtop - won 7 stakes against top male turfers, including HoY Fort Marcy

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

I agree.

The connections of PE picked a 3 horse field with Gulch being the major competitor (not the best horse in the country) to take their single shot against boys. I don't criticize it because that's the way it has typically been done in the US when mares face older Grade 1 colts. They look for an easy spot here or there or don't do it at all.

Rachel took on the best 3YOs, but when it came time to take on older males she took on Bullsbay and Macho Again (the 4th string). Again, nothing to criticize.

Zenyatta is the only one that is held to the standard of having to run against the best males a lot of the time or get trashed. It's a double standard.

Zenyatta has run against "the best" males less than 5% of her career despite there being virtually no good males to speak of.

Hell Zenyatta has only run against the best filles a handful of times.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Hell Zenyatta has only run against the best filles a handful of times.

Good one, we are talking about a horse who has won 9 straight grade 1 races, who knew her races were restricted to only bad horses.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

Good one, we are talking about a horse who has won 9 straight grade 1 races, who knew her races were restricted to only bad horses.

So is this the, "they could have come to her house if they wanted" defense again?