Bernardini IS

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by pgardn

I want what is sitting right in front of us to show himself. Not destroy horrible 4 horse fields. That we have 4 horses running in a race like this clearly shows the level of competition. Nil. His most impressive race, the Preakness. For 3 year olds.

Smarty ran against much better horses and had a much more difficult schedule. Bernardini has got to waltz around thus far. Cmon folks he is not gonna be in a BC field with horses Like Roses in May, Ghostzapper, Congaree, Megs, Pleasantly Perfect. Jeez Louise. This has been a bad year. We started out nicely and horses have just gone down the tubes with injuries. I hope Lava Man can give him a go and they just bust each other up. But the horse dont travel. Im not holding my breath. Quit trying to sugar coat everything. The level of depth is cellophane thickness.

If Bernardini and Lava Man for some odd reason dont make it to the BCC, what have we got left, healthy, ready and top notch?

So let me get this straight.. You're already writing off the BCC field, and pre-emptively discrediting Bernardini if he wins the BCC, because it's already a bad field in your opinion. Now I've heard everything.

This just in. There's a REASON that he's facing nobody. NO ONE WANTS TO FACE HIM.

Your attitude is everything that's wrong with the racewatching public. Rather than appreciate the type of horse that only comes along a few times in a life (if we're lucky), you'd rather sit back and knock the horse for something he cannot control and something that is mainly A RESULT OF HIS BRILLIANCE. There's absolutely no satisfying this type of racing "fan" unless we go dig up Secretariat, Seattle Slew, find Spectacular Bid, etc. and run them against this horse. Then if he loses, the "fan" will say "I told you so." It's a complete joke.

THIS IS SOMETHING I'VE LEARNED OVER THE YEARS AS A RACING FAN: NO MATTER HOW GOOD THE HORSE, THE "HE BEAT NOBODY" CROWD WILL ALWAYS EXIST.

It wouldn't matter if Pegasus came to life and won the BCC by 87 lengths. There would, without a doubt, be the "Yeah, but who did Pegasus beat?" sad sacks chiming in at every opportunity.

And I can't even respond to "Smarty ran against much better horses and had a much more difficult schedule" without laughing myself blue.

Yet what I find even more absurdly hilarious is that when Lava Man beats Super Frolic for the 22nd time, we get 1,000 new threads proclaiming this horse the greatest older male since Man O' War. Okay. It's real tough to stay within 40 miles of your home base and beat the same four or five horses all year long. Much tougher than doing what Bernardini has done.

It's ridiculous.

[Betsy]

Great post, Ateam; I couldn't agree more. But really, it's their problem.......or not, if this is how they get their jollies. Now I'm hearing that Bernardini's time was slow for the track? LOL That's why he got a 117 Beyer; that track was not that fast and Bernardini finished in a canter. What did they expect, a track record performance one race before the Breeders Cup? Should Castellano have hit him with the whip, race well in hand, to impress the fans?

Even some of the praise here is qualified - nice race, I would have liked to have seen him beat more than 3 horses. Interesting that the same argument used to defend Mineshaft (who I adore) -- that he was so good that horses ducked him- is being used to discredit Bernardini. What a joke -it's not like he's struggling to win, either. He's winning in breathtaking style and it's still not enough.

There's a huge disconnect between racing fans and racing writers/handicappers/insiders. The former barely credit Bernardini with doing anything and the latter understand how good this horse is (if Bernardini's races are so slow, why aren't the speed handicappers knocking him?), almost uniformly. Racing writers have mentioned the fact that they'd like to see Bernardini beat fuller fields or overcome trouble, yet they also don't hold it against him because he's this good. Lucky them that they can appreciate a special talent.

[Revolution]

Originally Posted by Betsy

Great post, Ateam; I couldn't agree more. But really, it's their problem.......or not, if this is how they get their jollies. Now I'm hearing that Bernardini's time was slow for the track? LOL That's why he got a 117 Beyer; that track was not that fast and Bernardini finished in a canter. What did they expect, a track record performance one race before the Breeders Cup? Should Castellano have hit him with the whip, race well in hand, to impress the fans?

Even some of the praise here is qualified - nice race, I would have liked to have seen him beat more than 3 horses. Interesting that the same argument used to defend Mineshaft (who I adore) -- that he was so good that horses ducked him- is being used to discredit Bernardini. What a joke -it's not like he's struggling to win, either. He's winning in breathtaking style and it's still not enough.

There's a huge disconnect between racing fans and racing writers/handicappers/insiders. The former barely credit Bernardini with doing anything and the latter understand how good this horse is (if Bernardini's races are so slow, why aren't the speed handicappers knocking him?), almost uniformly. Racing writers have mentioned the fact that they'd like to see Bernardini beat fuller fields or overcome trouble, yet they also don't hold it against him because he's this good. Lucky them that they can appreciate a special talent.

bernardini has 4 of the fastest 5 beyers run this year. the other being the faulty one sinister minister ran. he is significantly faster than any distance horse out there.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Revolution

bernardini has 4 of the fastest 5 beyers run this year. the other being the faulty one sinister minister ran. he is significantly faster than any distance horse out there.

lol maybe all five are faulty. hey, any horse on any given day can run lights out. that was sinmins day. calling it faulty could bring into question any beyer!

Originally Posted by Revolution

bernardini has 4 of the fastest 5 beyers run this year. the other being the faulty one sinister minister ran. he is significantly faster than any distance horse out there.

To hell with the GD numbers. Horses running free on the lead get these types of numbers. There are a heck of a lot of very good races that are very close that do not yield good Beyers. Because the horses knock the crap out of each other.

[Pointg5]

Originally Posted by Revolution

bernardini has 4 of the fastest 5 beyers run this year. the other being the faulty one sinister minister ran. he is significantly faster than any distance horse out there.

It's kind of funny, how you point out that Sinister Ministers Beyer is faulty, but Bernardini's aren't...hmm, I guess if it fits your arguement, they are valid, if not, they are faulty...

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by Pointg5

It's kind of funny, how you point out that Sinister Ministers Beyer is faulty, but Bernardini's aren't...hmm, I guess if it fits your arguement, they are valid, if not, they are faulty...

SM ran one in the Top 5. Bernardini ran the other four. I guess that's enough evidence to say 'dini's faster.. Not to you, apparently, though.

[Pointg5]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

SM ran one in the Top 5. Bernardini ran the other four. I guess that's enough evidence to say 'dini's faster.. Not to you, apparently, though.

Ofcourse Bernardini is faster, but that's not the point, you can't selectively point to that evidence as him being fast, but say well that was a faulty Beyer on Sin Min, isn't it possible that one or two of Bernardini's Beyers are faulty then. Didn't he earn one of those on a loose lead or easy trip? That's the thing with you Bernardini lovers, it's all or none, and if you don't lavish praise on him you are a hater, that's rediculous. Haven't I said that I believe he's the best horse in training? Haven't I said he's a potential great? I am sorry I have questions about him when he gets hooked. I am finished with this conversation, I really hope he wins the Classic, because I don't think some of you guys will be able to get on with your lives if he does not...

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

So let me get this straight.. You're already writing off the BCC field, and pre-emptively discrediting Bernardini if he wins the BCC, because it's already a bad field in your opinion. Now I've heard everything.

This just in. There's a REASON that he's facing nobody. NO ONE WANTS TO FACE HIM.

Your attitude is everything that's wrong with the racewatching public. Rather than appreciate the type of horse that only comes along a few times in a life (if we're lucky), you'd rather sit back and knock the horse for something he cannot control and something that is mainly A RESULT OF HIS BRILLIANCE. There's absolutely no satisfying this type of racing "fan" unless we go dig up Secretariat, Seattle Slew, find Spectacular Bid, etc. and run them against this horse. Then if he loses, the "fan" will say "I told you so." It's a complete joke.

THIS IS SOMETHING I'VE LEARNED OVER THE YEARS AS A RACING FAN: NO MATTER HOW GOOD THE HORSE, THE "HE BEAT NOBODY" CROWD WILL ALWAYS EXIST.

It wouldn't matter if Pegasus came to life and won the BCC by 87 lengths. There would, without a doubt, be the "Yeah, but who did Pegasus beat?" sad sacks chiming in at every opportunity.

And I can't even respond to "Smarty ran against much better horses and had a much more difficult schedule" without laughing myself blue.

Yet what I find even more absurdly hilarious is that when Lava Man beats Super Frolic for the 22nd time, we get 1,000 new threads proclaiming this horse the greatest older male since Man O' War. Okay. It's real tough to stay within 40 miles of your home base and beat the same four or five horses all year long. Much tougher than doing what Bernardini has done.

It's ridiculous.

see what i mean? it's ok to knock lava mans competition, but not bernardinis. right? and by your logic, if lava man is the best comp that bernie will face, than yeah, evidently it is a crappy field--since you think lava man stinks, right?

now me, on the other hand...i think the best open race of the year is coming up in the bcc. the winner will justifiably be called horse of the year.. the likes of lava man, bernardini, invasor, david junior assembling in churchill, neutral ground for them all. the four above--take the entire year, and the four of them together have only two losses between them all!! some have run only on dirt, one only on turf, and one on both. gonna be a hell of a race. but ateam, you and others do no favors to bern by suggesting that the ones he will face in nov are nothing but pretenders. lava man is having the best year of his racing life. heck, they all are!!! bring on nov, so we can anoint the best horse since gz--and probably better, because all of these guys have raced way more in a year than he did!!

Originally Posted by Danzig188

see what i mean? it's ok to knock lava mans competition, but not bernardinis. right? and by your logic, if lava man is the best comp that bernie will face, than yeah, evidently it is a crappy field--since you think lava man stinks, right?

now me, on the other hand...i think the best open race of the year is coming up in the bcc. the winner will justifiably be called horse of the year.. the likes of lava man, bernardini, invasor, david junior assembling in churchill, neutral ground for them all. the four above--take the entire year, and the four of them together have only two losses between them all!! some have run only on dirt, one only on turf, and one on both. gonna be a hell of a race. but ateam, you and others do no favors to bern by suggesting that the ones he will face in nov are nothing but pretenders. lava man is having the best year of his racing life. heck, they all are!!! bring on nov, so we can anoint the best horse since gz--and probably better, because all of these guys have raced way more in a year than he did!!

Invasor is sick... or so I thought? That was a total lie to keep him away from Bernardini.? Invasor was really in top shape? Lava Man, again, outside of the west, I dont trust the horse. I dont think he travels well at all. And David Junior. Bring on a poor Euro that is used to trotting the first 6f on the grass and take on these dirt horses running a diff direction. The Euros are at a clear disadvantage in the BCC.

This years BCC is may rank as one of the shallowest. Take out Lava Man and Bernardini... and we have a sick INvasor left? Who would watch this. There is one reason the BCC will get people watching. Bernardini, not his competition. Its shallow. Sorry.

Having said that Im looking forward to the sprint. Henny Hughes looks tremendous and will hopefully be vastly overbet. So hopefully I can find another Cajun Beat. Its the sprint.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Invasor is sick... or so I thought? That was a total lie to keep him away from Bernardini.? Invasor was really in top shape? Lava Man, again, outside of the west, I dont trust the horse. I dont think he travels well at all. And David Junior. Bring on a poor Euro that is used to trotting the first 6f on the grass and take on these dirt horses running a diff direction. The Euros are at a clear disadvantage in the BCC.

This years BCC is may rank as one of the shallowest. Take out Lava Man and Bernardini... and we have a sick INvasor left? Who would watch this. There is one reason the BCC will get people watching. Bernardini, not his competition. Its shallow. Sorry.

Having said that Im looking forward to the sprint. Henny Hughes looks tremendous and will hopefully be vastly overbet. So hopefully I can find another Cajun Beat. Its the sprint.

invasor spiked a fever. no way i'd take on bern if my horse wasn't close to 100%. problem is now that he'll be off 13 weeks, but hopefully kieran will get him as ready as he can for the bcc.
i just think it's not being consistent with arguments if some knock lava about his comp--but it's heresy to question bernardinis--and of course it's pointed out that bernardini can only face who shows up, he has no control over who he runs against. well guess what folks?! neither does lava man!!!! or any other horse. but if super frolic can't hold up to scrutiny, why should andromedas hero? or wanderin boy?? lol it's crazy.
i think the top 3 yo effort this wknd was by henny hughes. he took on some of the best sprinters in the country, including silver train, who we all know absolutely loves belmont!

[2MinsToPost]

Which is better,

a chili dog from Dairy Queen

or

Wendy's french fries?

[Danzig]

profundity of the day.

real source of my frustration is knowing Bernardini will not be runnng at 4. That pisses me off to no end.

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

So let me get this straight.. You're already writing off the BCC field, and pre-emptively discrediting Bernardini if he wins the BCC, because it's already a bad field in your opinion. Now I've heard everything.

This just in. There's a REASON that he's facing nobody. NO ONE WANTS TO FACE HIM.

Your attitude is everything that's wrong with the racewatching public. Rather than appreciate the type of horse that only comes along a few times in a life (if we're lucky), you'd rather sit back and knock the horse for something he cannot control and something that is mainly A RESULT OF HIS BRILLIANCE. There's absolutely no satisfying this type of racing "fan" unless we go dig up Secretariat, Seattle Slew, find Spectacular Bid, etc. and run them against this horse. Then if he loses, the "fan" will say "I told you so." It's a complete joke.

THIS IS SOMETHING I'VE LEARNED OVER THE YEARS AS A RACING FAN: NO MATTER HOW GOOD THE HORSE, THE "HE BEAT NOBODY" CROWD WILL ALWAYS EXIST.

It wouldn't matter if Pegasus came to life and won the BCC by 87 lengths. There would, without a doubt, be the "Yeah, but who did Pegasus beat?" sad sacks chiming in at every opportunity.

And I can't even respond to "Smarty ran against much better horses and had a much more difficult schedule" without laughing myself blue.

Yet what I find even more absurdly hilarious is that when Lava Man beats Super Frolic for the 22nd time, we get 1,000 new threads proclaiming this horse the greatest older male since Man O' War. Okay. It's real tough to stay within 40 miles of your home base and beat the same four or five horses all year long. Much tougher than doing what Bernardini has done.

It's ridiculous.

And who in Gods name is close to decent then ateam if Lava Man is not. Which outside of Cali I dont think he is. Are really telling me we got a bunch of good older horses? Is that what you are saying? Who are they? It has not been a good year and it is not Bernardinis fault. But I cant rate him the greatest in 30 years as one poster did. No way no how. I wonder if that poster has been alive 30 years.

And I can't even respond to "Smarty ran against much better horses and had a much more difficult schedule" without laughing myself blue.

Then why did you respond and laugh yourself blue?

And you are telling me Bernardini ran 3 TC races? For gods sake what schedule is more difficult than that? TELL ME ATEAM, GIVE ME A MORE DIFFICULT SCHEDULE?

ANd you are coronating this horse as the best horse to come along in years... Why? Because he looks great in his wins. BUT FOR GODS SAKE I HAVE WATCHED THIS STUFF A LOT LONGER THAN YOU, SO TELL ME, HOW DO YOU DEFINE GREAT?

In my humble definition of GREAT you have got to be pushed and come through some adversity. Yes in my definition, you have to do more than win. A horse has to win facing some adversity. If the horse is so great then why does he not run with more weight against his elders? Who cares if he is 3, he is GREAT, ATEAM says so, so weight him down in a HANDICAP instead of older horses. Handicap THE BEST HORSE.

This just in. There's a REASON that he's facing nobody. NO ONE WANTS TO FACE HIM.

Who is out there to face him on the level of Barbaro that is not injured or sick? Who ATEAM? Who is up and coming and worthy? Which horse ATEam, since the older division and 3 year olds are so loaded this year? FACT: This is not a good year in the older division or the 3 yo division. The best horses where pushed too hard and or are out, or are not present. Bernadini's connections played it perfectly.

And I have already stated its not his fault numerous times. You making a post as absurd as this... makes me want the horse to lose which I dont. I want to see the horse beat some hot horses.

So you think Bernardini has run a schedule tougher that Smarty JONes... get real. The TC is murder. And they new it. Alert ATEam, there is no tougher series of races than the triple crown. If so, give it to me.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by Danzig188

see what i mean? it's ok to knock lava mans competition, but not bernardinis. right? and by your logic, if lava man is the best comp that bernie will face, than yeah, evidently it is a crappy field--since you think lava man stinks, right?

Exactly.

You guys aren't very good at reading comprehension. My point is that there's a great deal of hypocrisy in almost everything the Bernardini haters say. The same people who destroy Bernardini for beating no one are suspiciously silent whenever Lava Man is getting praise around here. This is ludicrous. They both have beaten nobody, yet Bernardini is the only one who attracts the "he beat nobody" gathering. That was all I was saying.

Originally Posted by pgardn

And who in Gods name is close to decent then ateam if Lava Man is not. Which outside of Cali I dont think he is. Are really telling me we got a bunch of good older horses? Is that what you are saying? Who are they? It has not been a good year and it is not Bernardinis fault. But I cant rate him the greatest in 30 years as one poster did. No way no how. I wonder if that poster has been alive 30 years.

The point is that you might as well not even respond to Bernardini posts anymore, because there's no way your opinion can be changed, no matter what he does at CD. So despite anything the horse does, you're gonna be singing the same tune.

Originally Posted by pgardn

And I can't even respond to "Smarty ran against much better horses and had a much more difficult schedule" without laughing myself blue.

Then why did you respond and laugh yourself blue?

Did I respond to that quote? No, I didn't.

Originally Posted by pgardn

In my humble definition of GREAT you have got to be pushed and come through some adversity. Yes in my definition, you have to do more than win. A horse has to win facing some adversity. If the horse is so great then why does he not run with more weight against his elders? Who cares if he is 3, he is GREAT, ATEAM says so, so weight him down in a HANDICAP instead of older horses. Handicap THE BEST HORSE.

The Jockey Club Gold Cup isn't a handicap. And it comes back to your same tired argument. Bernardini might as well retire, according to you. He'll never become great, because in order to do that, he has to beat horses that won't run against him. Greatness to me is earned with a mix of dominance, respect from others and an inexplicable quality, which is just that I'm blown away every time the horse runs. The only other horse besides this one that blew me away every time he ran was Ghostzapper. Like you said, I haven't been watching races forever, but since I have, those are the two who blew me away everytime they ran. Plus there's something I heard early on about this horse that I can't repeat here, which let me know that he could be great, and this statement has yet to be proven wrong.

Going back to Ghostzapper for a minute, there's something to be said about how much praise he gets around here these days. Back when he was running, I always felt like I was in the minority in thinking he was something special. But now, all I see is Ghostzapper this, Ghostzapper that. You think maybe there are certain people who just have a psychological tendency to not be able to appreciate great things until they're gone?

Originally Posted by pgardn

FACT: This is not a good year in the older division or the 3 yo division.

Really? That's a FACT? Not an opinion?

Originally Posted by pgardn

And I have already stated its not his fault numerous times. You making a post as absurd as this... makes me want the horse to lose which I dont. I want to see the horse beat some hot horses.

Yeah, I made the absurd post. You're already discrediting him for winning a "weak" Classic, and I'm off the deep end here.

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Exactly.

1.The point is that you might as well not even respond to Bernardini posts anymore, because there's no way your opinion can be changed, no matter what he does at CD. So despite anything the horse does, you're gonna be singing the same tune.



2.Did I respond to that quote? No, I didn't.



3.The Jockey Club Gold Cup isn't a handicap. And it comes back to your same tired argument. Bernardini might as well retire, according to you. He'll never become great, because in order to do that, he has to beat horses that won't run against him. Greatness to me is earned with a mix of dominance, respect from others and an inexplicable quality, which is just that I'm blown away every time the horse runs. The only other horse besides this one that blew me away every time he ran was Ghostzapper. Like you said, I haven't been watching races forever, but since I have, those are the two who blew me away everytime they ran. Plus there's something I heard early on about this horse that I can't repeat here, which let me know that he could be great, and this statement has yet to be proven wrong.

4.Going back to Ghostzapper for a minute, there's something to be said about how much praise he gets around here these days. Back when he was running, I always felt like I was in the minority in thinking he was something special. But now, all I see is Ghostzapper this, Ghostzapper that. You think maybe there are certain people who just have a psychological tendency to not be able to appreciate great things until they're gone?



5.Really? That's a FACT? Not an opinion?



6.Yeah, I made the absurd post. You're already discrediting him for winning a "weak" Classic, and I'm off the deep end here.

1. I wont change my opinion? How do you know that? I need some tough races, and the BCC does give the opportunity. Especially if the horse gets into some traffic problems, which does not usually happen in 4 horse fields.

2. No you responded. Enough silly games like this.

3. I did not say the Jockey Club Gold was a handicap. Although I did imply it by adding older horses. I would be more impressed if the horse ran in a handicap like Mineshaft and really weighted down at distance. They actually used to run races with serious handicaps.

4. I never did this with Ghostzapper, although I was skeptical early on. He earned my respect. But I will never go bonkers over this horse being he was so fragile. I use longevity as one criteria. Thats why Smarty wont make it all the way either, except as a horse that ran some fantastic TC races as a 3yo. Seattle sees Candy Ride run one freak race here and he is sold this horse is the greatest ever. I think you see my point.

5. Oh very good ateam, its an opinion. Refute it.

6. You are not off the deep end. Like many others you have spotted a very good horse. Lets see him show he is great. Hope he gets the chance. There have been a number of very good horses in the past that did not get a chance.

Oh yes, this is an opinion to.

Ateam,
Noone hates Bernadini, and noone hated Ghostzapper.
In Zapper's case he was winning shorter races and beating SMALL fields, albeit better fields than Dini has but needed a "defining race" to show everyone how special he was and elevate him to "great" status. His BC Classic race was exactly that, he demolished and destroyed the field against his preferred running style to run an incredible figure.
Anyone who "hated" him or questioned him after that needs a straight jacket.
If Bernadini does the same thing then noone will question a thing about him either.
I think its quite fair to acknowledge Dini's immense talent yet still need to see a "defining race" out of him. Beating medocre horses or injured horses is NOT his fault. He can only beat what hes put up against. Noone with a brain is "hating" on him. Its just that need for a defining race that people wanna see.

Originally Posted by oracle80

Ateam,
Its just that need for a defining race that people wanna see.

You can put me on record as stating "you'll NEVER see one". I could care less if he beats Andromeda's Hero and that other quitter by a half mile.

If he puts away HH going 7/8th's to a mile I'll readdress my statement.

[Travis Stone]

It's laughable. If a horse dominates a division, the division is weak. If no horse dominates a division, the division is weak. What will make people happy? Horseplayers are never happy.