What Is The Fairest Turf Course?

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by tiggerv

I find Tampa at 8/8.5F about as fair as it gets for Turf.

A fair turf course shouldn't be dictated by the distance. If that was the case the European turn sprints would be fairest because some of them are run on a straightaway.

[clyde]

Originally Posted by randallscott35

I agree with this. Would be in my Top 3

You know it!!

[tiggerv]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

The problem I have with CNL (and FG and AP, and some others) is that too often the leaders collapse very late. Your horse could be home on any other course but get run down the last few strides on these courses.

I suspected this was due to course issues of some sort. This was clarified by Desormeaux in the post race interview of the Virginia Derby. He spoke about the course(s) being uneven, how there are portions, in the stretch and elsewhere, that are lower than the rest of the course. And, how it was very important to keep Paddy O'Prado's head up while running over those portions so that he didn't bobble or lose his stride.

Speed favoring turf courses can be a real pain in the ass to handicap but at least they play consistently. It's courses like those mentioned above that are the most difficult to beat because you don't know how they'll pay and you can lose with the best horse very late.

The Colonial inner seems to play extremely fair. It's hard to judge the outer because they run mostly sprints on it. The course may have been uneven since they run 100+ sprints and only about 20 routes on it.

[DaTruth]

Originally Posted by clyde

Fairgrounds.

That depends on how sandy it gets.

[the_fat_man]

TAM is the best place to play turf in the winter. The only problem with that course, and I've mentioned this on a number of occasions with zero effect, is that there's an open rail towards the end of the stretch (like many other courses). What they've done there, however, is cut the grass in an 'outward' manner. This results in the field coming out late stretch. Luckily, the stewards are finally on to this and have stopped DQing horses for drifting late. (see the Gio Ponti race)

[tiggerv]

Originally Posted by randallscott35

A fair turf course shouldn't be dictated by the distance. If that was the case the European turn sprints would be fairest because some of them are run on a straightaway.

Fair enough. I only pulled that distance because I find 8F a bit unfair because the outer gates are penalized. That isn't a reflection on the turf itself and whether it is speed favoring or not. I think that plays fair across all routes.

[the_fat_man]

Originally Posted by tiggerv

The Colonial inner seems to play extremely fair. It's hard to judge the outer because they run mostly sprints on it. The course may have been uneven since they run 100+ sprints and only about 20 routes on it.

A lot of late collapses at CNL. Nothing like having your horse do all the work and draw clear only to have the race fall completely apart 5 strides from the wire. Not saying it can't be beaten, just that there are 'easier' options. Of course, this has a lot to do with the poor quality jocks/horses. Clearly, this issue is not as pronounced with the better jocks and horses.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by Scav

I think your wrong. Speed never really hold even with real slow fractions. It favors stalkers IMO. Closers have a hell of a time getting to the wire.

Originally Posted by randallscott35

You should be happy. I think your local track has the fairest turf course. Maybe I'm wrong.

Winner’s Running Style on Arlington Turf

Closers: 61/180 = 33.9%
Stalkers: 43/180 = 23.9%
Pressers: 29/180 = 16.1%
Speed: 47/180 = 26.1%

When the rail is out past 42 feet, the course becomes much less favorable to speed/pressing types. When the rail is in from 0-42 feet, you're looking at a much fairer course.

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

Winner’s Running Style on Arlington Turf

Closers: 61/180 = 33.9%
Stalkers: 43/180 = 23.9%
Pressers: 29/180 = 16.1%
Speed: 47/180 = 26.1%

When the rail is out past 42 feet, the course becomes much less favorable to speed/pressing types. When the rail is in from 0-42 feet, you're looking at a much fairer course.

Press trip on any surface IMO is the worse in racing.

[tiggerv]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

Press trip on any surface IMO is the worse in racing.

Why is that?

[the_fat_man]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

Press trip on any surface IMO is the worse in racing.

Because jocks continually botch it up by moving too soon. If you're chasing a lone speed, you're supposed to go after it late stretch. If you get it, fine. If not, you're 2nd. For some reason, jocks seem to think that the finish line is on the turn.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

Press trip on any surface IMO is the worse in racing.

Certainly has worked out that way at Arlington this year.

Winner’s Running Style on Arlington Polytrack

Closers: 104/421 = 24.7%
Stalkers: 125/421 = 29.7%
Pressers: 71/421 = 16.9%
Speed: 121/421 = 28.7%

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

Winner’s Running Style on Arlington Turf

Closers: 61/180 = 33.9%
Stalkers: 43/180 = 23.9%
Pressers: 29/180 = 16.1%
Speed: 47/180 = 26.1%

When the rail is out past 42 feet, the course becomes much less favorable to speed/pressing types. When the rail is in from 0-42 feet, you're looking at a much fairer course.

Those numbers seem pretty fair by and large.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by randallscott35

Those numbers seem pretty fair by and large.

I think it's generally a pretty fair course, one of my favorites to bet on...but it does trend slightly to closers or speed horses, in my opinion, either way, but since that doesn't make a whole lot of sense, I really think that lots of the races that are won by speed or closers boils down to race dynamics rather than any intrinsic unfairness in the course.

It becomes a bit more extreme when broken out, though.

Rail 0-42 feet

Stalkers/Closers 60/109 = 55%
Pressers/Speed 49/109 = 45%



Rail 43-87 feet

Stalkers/Closers 44/71 = 62%
Pressers/Speed 27/71 = 38%

[DaTruth]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

Because jocks continually botch it up by moving too soon. If you're chasing a lone speed, you're supposed to go after it late stretch. If you get it, fine. If not, you're 2nd. For some reason, jocks seem to think that the finish line is on the turn.

I hate when that happens, especially when the speed hits another gear and stays with the presser.

[philcski]

No statistics to back it up but I also like Fair Grounds' turf course. No argument for anyone saying Belmont outer (except NOT at a mile and a sixteenth) or Woodbine, either.

The 'most fun' turf course is far and away Kentucky Downs. What a great place.

As for the pressers question, I think part of it is pressers tend to be speed that can't make the lead and don't want or know how to pass, so they invariably back up and run terribly. A STRONG presser versus cheap speed is about the best trip, IMO, because there's (a) no trouble and (b) no decision to be made about when to make a move.

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by tiggerv

Why is that?

Really? I thought it was fairly obvious. I never want to see any horse I bet pressing the pace. Its just not where you want to be. What advantage do you have? I want to be on the lead, stalking tucked in, or coming from out of it in a fast paced race.
IMO they seem to back up/stop more then any other type of horse. The speed either keeps going or your sucked into a hot pace and stuck making the first, most of the time premature move.

[Scav]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

Winner’s Running Style on Arlington Turf

Closers: 61/180 = 33.9%
Stalkers: 43/180 = 23.9%
Pressers: 29/180 = 16.1%
Speed: 47/180 = 26.1%

When the rail is out past 42 feet, the course becomes much less favorable to speed/pressing types. When the rail is in from 0-42 feet, you're looking at a much fairer course.

You need to break out sprint's from this, specific to 5f sprints I think. There is a massive bias in those races. I think only 2 horses have closed from less then 4 lengths in those races, and I think 20 of them have been run.

I think it skews the speed number.

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by Scav

You need to break out sprint's from this, specific to 5f sprints I think. There is a massive bias in those races. I think only 2 horses have closed from less then 4 lengths in those races, and I think 20 of them have been run.

I think it skews the speed number.

Thomas.... good stat.

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by Cardus

As I scroll through this thread, I am thinking, "Fairgrounds is not on this list."

And then you agree with Mort.

Funny.

Forgot about it at first. But yes they would be towards the top.