Crist: The great distaffers.. - Page 7

Indian Charlie · #**121** 06-22-2010, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smooth Operator

Please … GZ blows a horse like MM off the track.

Not to mention the fact that he could carry his speed ten panels against the best comp.

Jury still very much out for QR on that one…

Who is MM that you refer to?

CSC · #**122** 06-22-2010, 10:27 AM

Upon further, further review, all fields suck in 2009 or as conveniently argued.

ateamstupid · #**123** 06-22-2010, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Who is MM that you refer to?

MG is MM is Musket Man, IC. Though IDK and really WGAF.

ateamstupid · #**124** 06-22-2010, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSC

Upon further, further review, all fields suck in 2009 or as conveniently argued.

The hypocrisy of this BS is mindmelting.

hoovesupsideyourhead · #**125** 06-22-2010, 10:30 AM

where is da hoss when we need him..

CSC · #**126** 06-22-2010, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

The hypocrisy of this BS is mindmelting.

Yeah tell me about it.

I still love the build up of that Woodward field, had Zenyatta won that, it would be considered the worst gr.1 field of the year. I agree the BS meter here is mindmelting.

blackthroatedwind · #**127** 06-22-2010, 10:39 AM

Gulch also finished second in both the Whitney and Woodward at 1 1/8. In the Whitney he was 3/4 of a length behind the mighty Java Gold and 2 1/4 ahead of Broad Brush.

Yeah, he couldn't get 1 1/8.

Indian Charlie · #**128** 06-22-2010, 10:40 AM

Java Gold was no Zenyatta though, and Broad Brush was no St. Trinians.

ateamstupid · #**129** 06-22-2010, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSC

Yeah tell me about it.

I still love the build up of that Woodward field, had Zenyatta won that, it would be considered the worst gr.1 field of the year. I agree the BS meter here is mindmelting.

The fact that you still don't understand why the Woodward win was impressive is almost unfathomable.

CSC · #**130** 06-22-2010, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

The fact that you still don't understand why the Woodward win was impressive is almost unfathomable.

The fact that you look at the competitors as stiff competition is just as unfathomable. But hey whatever cranks your case...

ateamstupid · #**131** 06-22-2010, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSC

The fact that you look at the competitors as stiff competition is just as unfathomable. But hey whatever cranks your case...

Thanks for proving my point. You still think it's about the specific competitors.

KirisClown · #**132** 06-22-2010, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HomerS

Sky Beauty is a perfect example of East Coast bias. Especially when you look at how strong California racing was back then.

She beat up on the same horses back in NY, running very moderate figures, and then would get exposed and flop in the BC.

You never ever read about her having to run somewhere else to "prove herself" yet the Zenyetta detractors continue to hold her to a standard they dont seem to hold anyone else to.

Was anyone saying Sky Beauty was the best female to ever race back in 93 and 94?

CSC · #**133** 06-22-2010, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Thanks for proving my point. You still think it's about the specific competitors.

Try that philosophy on Zenyatta if you can, if you want me to believe that.

rgustafson · #**134** 06-22-2010, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Personal Ensign was a Grade 1 winner in just her second career start as a 2yo. She then suffered a major fracture preparing for the BC Juvenile Fillies (at Santa Anita) in a hind ankle that required several screws to stabilize.

Off for nearly a year, she returned at 3, and with just 3 starts under her belt and never having run further than a mile, she won the Grade 1 Beldame versus her elders at a mile and a quarter.

Her perfect 4yo season was highlighted by a start against males in the Whitney and the BC Distaff. Both of those races were on off-tracks. Both resulted in victories, not scratches.

While the 13 for 13 may not stand up to Zenyatta's 17 for 17, there is a big difference IMO between running at 2 and 3 and not starting until nearly 4 years of age. You'll say that the competition at 2 and 3 is easier, but I would say that it's much more difficult for a top class horse to maintain superiority (whether or unbeaten or not) in its division as it and its peers are developing (some improving, some regressing) over time.

Though in basic terms, there race records are similar, here's the essential difference between the two:

Personal Ensign's race record is one of progression, essentially each successive start tougher than the last. Considering the injury, an element of heroism prevails.

Zenyatta's race record is one of ennui, same old song and dance. A cloud of evasion hangs over it.

Personal Ensign is without a doubt one of greatest fillies or mares ever. As has been stated, there was no reason for her to race anywhere other than where she did. An undefeated record that was capped by her win in the BC Distaff against Winning Colors, which imo may be the greatest race effort by any filly or mare period. I do think, however, we need to put her "beat males" achievment in perspective. That race was the Grade I Whitney at Saratoga. It was a three horse field and it was basically a match race between her and Gulch who had only one win from seven tries at 1 1/8 miles albeit against top company. The third horse in the field? King's Swan.

ateamstupid · #**135** 06-22-2010, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSC

Try that philosophy on Zenyatta if you can if you want me to believe that.

I'm done trying to explain horse racing to you. It's pretty sad that you watch a three-year-old filly go :46 at Saratoga and bravely hold off perfect-trip solid older males at nine furlongs and can't recognize the rarity of the feat.

Notice how I didn't bring up the "other" horse in my explanation? It really isn't that difficult.

RolloTomasi · #**136** 06-22-2010, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSC

In reality, I posted according to the Crist blog that she had raced only once out of N.Y, go back and look. That started the dialogue for obvious reasons since one of Zenyatta's criticisms is she doesn't ship often enough, all the rest of the stuff came from your imaginary mind. I also pointed out wouldn't it be fairer to judge Zenyatta as a whole after this year, a point you agreed with me. If that is a backpedal in your mind, I'm sorry I can't help you.

Here's the reality, one last time. You mistakenly said that Personal Ensign only raced once outside NY, not because Crist got it wrong, but because you couldn't understand his chart.

You were quickly corrected, then laughed it off and a reference to Lady's Secret because "Personal Ensign's name is linked to Zenyatta's". When someone asked why you would bring this comparison up at all, you replied "it was a ploy to draw you into a discussion".

Well, you got it. And apparently you had no answer, taking the ol' "pass" maneuver on your backwards moving unicycle.

Your above post is more of the same. However nothing beats your butt hurt reply to SO about Personal Ensign and blasphemy.

Maybe you can get one of those soft donut thingies so you can sit back on your unicycle and pedal outta this non-existent discussion once and for all.

CSC · #**137** 06-22-2010, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Maybe you can get one of those soft donut thingies so you can sit back on your unicycle and pedal outta this non-existent discussion once and for all.

It's too bad you cannot accept other people's opinions, if I or Davidowitz want to compare Personal Ensign to Zenyatta, in our opinion we can. Get over it. Who is to say your opinion is more correct than others.

CSC · #**138** 06-22-2010, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

I'm done trying to explain horse racing to you. It's pretty sad that you watch a three-year-old filly go :46 at Saratoga and bravely hold off perfect-trip solid older males at nine furlongs and can't recognize the rarity of the feat.

Notice how I didn't bring up the "other" horse in my explanation? It really isn't that difficult.

Actually she went in 46.41.

10 pnt move up · #**139** 06-22-2010, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KirisClown

Was anyone saying Sky Beauty was the best female to ever race back in 93 and 94?

Sky Beauty is a good example that not all horses are made for shipping. From what I understand, and granted maybe I got some bad info, she just fell apart when she had to get on a plane or traveled and great distance.

I have no idea if Sky Beauty could have beat Hollywood Wildcat or One Dreamer if the race was in NY but going into the gate anyone around that horse knew she had little chance after the ship.

RolloTomasi · #**140** 06-22-2010, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smooth Operator

One needed "several screws" in her ankle after two starts while the other has been pretty much sound as a bell after 17?

I understand your point, but I don't think we can make claims about Zenyatta's soundness because instead of having periods of absence within her form, she simply showed up late. Zenyatta didn't start for nearly the entire first two seasons of a normal horses career. The reason? Could be any number, including a fracture. As far as I can tell, Personal Ensign retired without incident after the Distaff.

Quote:

By the way, upon further review of PE's Whitney … G looks to have been beyond his scope going nine … and thus quite vulnerable … and the show horse was like a hundred years old that year … and basically just a G3-type Aqueduct runner at that point.

Well, Gulch was a Grade 1 winner at 9f, competed in all 3 Triple Crown races (placing in the 12f Belmont), and won the Met Mile inbetween those races over his elders. His durability and stamina are hard to fault. Was he at his best at 9f? It's a similar scenario to the idea that Medaglia D'Oro couldn't stay 10f. Yeah, I suppose he's vulnerable, but it would take a very good horse to beat him. And it did.