Crist: The great distaffers..

[CSC]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

Clemens was a pretty awesome pitcher in the 80's. Whether that was performance enhanced or not is anyone's guess.

He was, but he was even more awesome after he bulked up. Plus I doubt he could pitch as long as he did without the help...

[slotdirt]

The argument could easily be made that his best season were his Red Sox years - look at that 1986 season, for instance, was probably his best (AL MVP, Cy Young, etc.) - though his Toronto years were also pretty awesome. When did he bulk up though, that's the question? And in the late 80's, pretty much everybody was on steroids, so I'm not sure it takes that much more away from him considering every hitter he was facing probably had access to the same medicine chest.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

The argument could easily be made that his best season were his Red Sox years - look at that 1986 season, for instance, was probably his best (AL MVP, Cy Young, etc.) - though his Toronto years were also pretty awesome. When did he bulk up though, that's the question? And in the late 80's, pretty much everybody was on steroids, so I'm not sure it takes that much more away from him considering every hitter he was facing probably had access to the same medicine chest.

I agree, cheaters playing cheaters. That is why I say the game has evolved, shortstops rarely ever hit for power prior to Robin Yount doing it when he went on the weight thing. Ruth, Maris, Aaron were great when they played in their era but had they played without the "help" in this steriods era, I have a hard time buying that they would have been equally as good in today's game.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by CSC

I agree, cheaters playing cheaters. That is why I say the game has evolved, shortstops rarely ever hit for power prior to Robin Yount doing it when he went on the weight thing. Ruth, Maris, Aaron were great when they played in their era but had they played without the "help" in this steriods era, I have a hard time buying that they would have been equally as good in today's game.

So Aaron, Ruth, maris (doesnt really belong in this conversation) wouldnt have taken steroids if they played during this era? What about the fact that the pitchers they faced were far greater playing in a 16 team major league with 4 man rotations as opposed to now when basically every number 4 and 5 starter wouldnt even be good enough to play back then? The great thing about baseball is how little it has really changed over the years. Look at a basketball game or football game from the 60's and watch as baseball game from the same era. The baseball game is pretty close to what we see today on the field while the other sports are drastically different.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by CSC

He was, but he was even more awesome after he bulked up. Plus I doubt he could pitch as long as he did without the help...

The longevity of his career seems to be the smoking gun. But he was a far better pitcher in earlier in his career when he was throwing 250+ dominant innings. The period of 1986-1992 was one of the greatest stretches any pitchers has ever had. His Vaunted Yankee years produced era's of 4.60, 3.70, 3.51, 4.35, and 3.91. Of course this was during a period of high offensive production but pales in comparison to his early Red Sox days. His 3 years in Houston were actually much better albeit against the weaker league.