Crist: The great distaffers..

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

They play under the same rules, on the same size fields, playing the same amount of games. They are easily compared especially when you factor their production against the players of the same years, i.e. how they performed against what the league average was for any particular year or set of years. Are players better conditioned or do they workout more? Sure but so do the pitchers that they face.

At least baseball players don't get to choose what pitchers they want to face and aren't afraid of crossing mountains. (except the Red Sox according to Gales)

The game is just different Cannon, it keeps evolving, think about it Ruth was once a pitcher in addition to being an everyday player. You could never do that in today's game.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by CSC

The game is just different Cannon, it keeps evolving, think about it Ruth was once a pitcher in addition to being an everyday player. You could never do that in today's game.

Babe Ruth was a pitcher first then was a position player. He didnt do them at the same time. In 1919 he pitched for 1/2 the year before becoming a position player for good. Rick Ankiel has done the same thing albeit with much less success. Of all the sports baseball is by far the closest to the same games as the years go by.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Babe Ruth was a pitcher first then was a position player. He didnt do them at the same time. In 1919 he pitched for 1/2 the year before becoming a position player for good. Rick Ankiel has done the same thing albeit with much less success. Of all the sports baseball is by far the closest to the same games as the years go by.

I thought I read somewhere he was slowly converted from pitcher to outfield and may have played both at one time, regardless this is an interesting point, was Roger Clemons a better pitcher Pre-HGH or Post-HGH?

[slotdirt]

Clemens was a pretty awesome pitcher in the 80's. Whether that was performance enhanced or not is anyone's guess.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

Clemens was a pretty awesome pitcher in the 80's. Whether that was performance enhanced or not is anyone's guess.

He was, but he was even more awesome after he bulked up. Plus I doubt he could pitch as long as he did without the help...

[slotdirt]

The argument could easily be made that his best season were his Red Sox years - look at that 1986 season, for instance, was probably his best (AL MVP, Cy Young, etc.) - though his Toronto years were also pretty awesome. When did he bulk up though, that's the question? And in the late 80's, pretty much everybody was on steroids, so I'm not sure it takes that much more away from him considering every hitter he was facing probably had access to the same medicine chest.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

The argument could easily be made that his best season were his Red Sox years - look at that 1986 season, for instance, was probably his best (AL MVP, Cy Young, etc.) - though his Toronto years were also pretty awesome. When did he bulk up though, that's the question? And in the late 80's, pretty much everybody was on steroids, so I'm not sure it takes that much more away from him considering every hitter he was facing probably had access to the same medicine chest.

I agree, cheaters playing cheaters. That is why I say the game has evolved, shortstops rarely ever hit for power prior to Robin Yount doing it when he went on the weight thing. Ruth, Maris, Aaron were great when they played in their era but had they played without the "help" in this steriods era, I have a hard time buying that they would have been equally as good in today's game.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by CSC

He was, but he was even more awesome after he bulked up. Plus I doubt he could pitch as long as he did without the help...

The longevity of his career seems to be the smoking gun. But he was a far better pitcher in earlier in his career when he was throwing 250+ dominant innings. The period of 1986-1992 was one of the greatest stretches any pitchers has ever had. His Vaunted Yankee years produced era's of 4.60, 3.70, 3.51, 4.35, and 3.91. Of course this was during a period of high offensive production but pales in comparison to his early Red Sox days. His 3 years in Houston were actually much better albeit against the weaker league.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by CSC

I thought I read somewhere he was slowly converted from pitcher to outfield and may have played both at one time, regardless this is an interesting point, was Roger Clemons a better pitcher Pre-HGH or Post-HGH?

Assuming that he didnt start taking hgh before he was a Yankee, no doubt his best years were pre HGH.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Assuming that he didnt start taking hgh before he was a Yankee, no doubt his best years were pre HGH.

I think he was linked to a Toronto Trainer when he was with the Blue Jays, he definitely was bulkier post Boston Red Sox. The guy is also a big time azz that would rival Ben Roethlisberger.

[Indian Charlie]

Upon further review of the 2009 BCC, it appears that the field truly sucked ass.

[CSC]

Upon further, further review, all fields suck in 2009 or as conveniently argued.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by CSC

Upon further, further review, all fields suck in 2009 or as conveniently argued.

The hypocrisy of this BS is mindmelting.

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

where is da hoss when we need him..

[CSC]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

The hypocrisy of this BS is mindmelting.

Yeah tell me about it. I still love the build up of that Woodward field, had Zenyatta won that, it would be considered the worst gr.1 field of the year. I agree the BS meter here is mindmelting.

[blackthroatedwind]

Gulch also finished second in both the Whitney and Woodward at 1 1/8. In the Whitney he was 3/4 of a length behind the mighty Java Gold and 2 1/4 ahead of Broad Brush.

Yeah, he couldn't get 1 1/8.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by CSC

Yeah tell me about it. I still love the build up of that Woodward field, had Zenyatta won that, it would be considered the worst gr.1 field of the year. I agree the BS meter here is mindmelting.

The fact that you still don't understand why the Woodward win was impressive is almost unfathomable.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by HomerS

Actually in 1918 he played quite a bit of outfield in addition to starting games.

Would have been HOF pitcher.

true he appeared 70 times in non pitching games

It was rumored that in 1919 he intentionally pitched poorly on occasion because he wanted to be a full time position player while the Red Sox thought he was more valuable as a pitcher.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by HomerS

I used to laugh when people compared Bonds to Ruth.

Ruth was HOF material as a pitcher and was outhomering teams.

and in the "dead ball" era. If Ruth was playing today he'd be as good as he was back then (or better since parks are smaller)

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

and in the "dead ball" era. If Ruth was playing today he'd be as good as he was back then (or better since parks are smaller)

He didnt really play in the deadball era for the most part. But he pretty much ended it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead-ball_era