Crist: The great distaffers..

[CSC]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

She raced twice outside of NY.

Regardless, why didn't you bring up Lady's Secret, as she should be the horse that Zenyatta is linked to being that she usurped Lady's Secret's legacy at Oak Tree?

I don't recall.....what was her geographic distribution?

I think you would agree that Personal Ensign has been linked more to Zenyatta than Lady's Secret from what I have heard on the internet and read on forums, so my smile shouldn't be too much of a surprise.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by CSC

I think you would agree that Personal Ensign has been linked more to Zenyatta than Lady's Secret from what I have heard on the internet and read on forums, so my smile shouldn't be too much of a surprise.

I couldn't possibly care less what people on the internet, with generally no overview of racing history, use to compare racehorses. Personal Ensign was an East Coast based horse, owned by people intimately tied to NY racing, so the fact that she spent her injury plagued career in NY is about as surprising as the sun coming up. Since you brought her up, however, I will add that while racing in NY she did face males in one of NY's biggest stake races ( the Whitney ). No shame in staying home. However, a challenge here or there never hurts.

Be that as it may, Lady's Secret was owned by Eugene Klein, who also owned the San Diego Chargers, so unlike the Phipps family, and like the connections of your darling, he was based on the West Coast. Now, while obviously if someone wanted a championship campaign, ya know....wanted to earn it and not declare it, they needed to run in NY ( especially in the days of racing before the internet when a campaign didn't rest only on a horse's laurels from one day ), he still ran close to half of her races at his home base. He found it possible to do a little ( OK, in her case, a lot ) of both.

You really need to take a good look at Lady's Secret's pps some time. Frankly, you should look at the pps of ALL of those on Steve Crist's list. It might give you some very needed perspective. It isn't that any sane person would ever even entertain the notion that Zenyatta is not a spectacular horse. It's just that some of us have a better sense of history than others.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Personal Ensign was an East Coast based horse, owned by people intimately tied to NY racing, so the fact that she spent her injury plagued career in NY is about as surprising as the sun coming up. .

I don't want to get into a debate about comparing horses from different eras, its basically useless and futile.

I do find it odd though that you say that about the Phipps when the very same can be said about the owners of Zenyatta. Though she showed up in the sports biggest races (Breeders Cup, racings championship day) so its not like she skipped them because they were in NY.

Heck I remember one trainer in New York and had what would have been highly thought of horses for both the distaff and the sprint and said he had no interest in racing in California..............and this was when it was on dirt. No one even batted and eye brow in that case, go figure. Different standards is what is frustrating.

[brockguy]

Just to add to Goldikova's impressive credentials that 6 of her 9 G1 triumphs are against males!

[XIIPointStables]

I would love to browse the PPs of the horses in Steve's blog.

Can someone lend me $190 so I can do so?

[dagolfer33]

Originally Posted by brockguy

Just to add to Goldikova's impressive credentials that 6 of her 9 G1 triumphs are against males!

....psstt....be quiet. We arent discussing horses that ship all over the world and beat all comers. We are just trying our best to refute that Zenyatta belongs in the discussion of one of the greatest female horses in the U.S. of all time.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by dagolfer33

....psstt....be quiet. We arent discussing horses that ship all over the world and beat all comers. We are just trying our best to refute that Zenyatta belongs in the discussion of one of the greatest female horses in the U.S. of all time.

Don't forget, according to one of the Zenyattards here, Goldikova is nothing since she couldn't win the BCC, which is the only race that matters (unless Z doesn't run there).

I believe, but I could be mistaken, that it was the smoothest of the Zenyattards that said that.

[dagolfer33]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Don't forget, according to one of the Zenyattards here, Goldikova is nothing since she couldn't win the BCC, which is the only race that matters (unless Z doesn't run there).

I believe, but I could be mistaken, that it was the smoothest of the Zenyattards that said that.

You're talking about that guy who is affiliated with that cheating football program aren't you.

[Smooth Operator]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Don't forget, according to one of the Zenyattards here, Goldikova is nothing since she couldn't win the BCC, which is the only race that matters (unless Z doesn't run there).

I believe, but I could be mistaken, that it was the smoothest of the Zenyattards that said that.

I consider classic distance runners inherently superior to sprinters and strict milers, Indian boy.

If this Goldilocks is so great, why didn't they stick her in the BCC (or the BCT) last year?

Not surprisingly, both of those contests have significantly higher purses than the BCM.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

I don't want to get into a debate about comparing horses from different eras, its basically useless and futile.

I do find it odd though that you say that about the Phipps when the very same can be said about the owners of Zenyatta. Though she showed up in the sports biggest races (Breeders Cup, racings championship day) so its not like she skipped them because they were in NY.

Heck I remember one trainer in New York and had what would have been highly thought of horses for both the distaff and the sprint and said he had no interest in racing in California..............and this was when it was on dirt. No one even batted and eye brow in that case, go figure. Different standards is what is frustrating.

If you took my entire comment you couldn't have made your argument.

Interesting.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

If you took my entire comment you couldn't have made your argument.

Interesting.

Because Klein let Lukas do anything he wanted, its not even the same situation. Yes Lukas ran his horses more aggressively than any other trainer in history. Why not make an apples to apples comparison. I think the Phipps is as you so eloquently stated, the only time they ship west of the Miss. is when there is a Breeders Cup, maybe an odd grass race.

[slotdirt]

I'm curious though, who did Personal Ensign duck in the F/M division by not going West? Was there some great distaffer out there she would have otherwise missed by not running the schedule that she ran?

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

I'm curious though, who did Personal Ensign duck in the F/M division by not going West? Was there some great distaffer out there she would have otherwise missed by not running the schedule that she ran?

Just to be clear, for clarity sakes

I am not criticizing her schedule, she ran in new york and then the BC, makes sense to me if I owned her.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

I'm curious though, who did Personal Ensign duck in the F/M division by not going West? Was there some great distaffer out there she would have otherwise missed by not running the schedule that she ran?

The Gary Jones filly By Land By Sea was the early season star in CA. She won stakes at Santa Anita, Gulfstream (the Rampart), Churchill, Oaklawn (the Apple Blossom), and Hollywood (the Milady). Something must have happened to her though because I don't think she ran the last half of the year.

The CA distaff division at the time had a lot of horses flip-flopping between the main track and turf course, so it wasn't particularly strong.

As a barometer Clabber Girl ran on both coasts that year, winning what is now the Clement Hirsch, and lost to Personal Ensign a couple of times during the year.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I couldn't possibly care less what people on the internet, with generally no overview of racing history, use to compare racehorses. Personal Ensign was an East Coast based horse, owned by people intimately tied to NY racing, so the fact that she spent her injury plagued career in NY is about as surprising as the sun coming up. Since you brought her up, however, I will add that while racing in NY she did face males in one of NY's biggest stake races ( the Whitney ). No shame in staying home. However, a challenge here or there never hurts.

Be that as it may, Lady's Secret was owned by Eugene Klein, who also owned the San Diego Chargers, so unlike the Phipps family, and like the connections of your darling, he was based on the West Coast. Now, while obviously if someone wanted a championship campaign, ya know....wanted to earn it and not declare it, they needed to run in NY ( especially in the days of racing before the internet when a campaign didn't rest only on a horse's laurels from one day ), he still ran close to half of her races at his home base. He found it possible to do a little ( OK, in her case, a lot ) of both.

You really need to take a good look at Lady's Secret's pps some time. Frankly, you should look at the pps of ALL of those on Steve Crist's list. It might give you some very needed perspective. It isn't that any sane person would ever even entertain the notion that Zenyatta is not a spectacular horse. It's just that some of us have a better sense of history than others.

But the Lady's Secret's are very few and far between, there are not many trainer's that would campaign horses today the way Lukas once did. Campaigns are now watered down for many top horses, injuried or not look how sparingly Ghostzapper ran in his final year of racing or Medaglia Doro for that matter. It was perhaps bad circumstance we did not see her ship the last 2 years other than the Apple Blossom with The BC being situated at SA two years in a row, regardless she is expected to run in the BC Classic this year and being that it is in Ky she will ship with maybe a race in NY before that. If she is successful, she would more than earned the right to be placed with the other great fillies/mares in this game. She is still writing her destiny in the game, you can't really judge her until the book is complete

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by CSC

But the Lady's Secret's are very few and far between, there are not many trainer's that would campaign horses today the way Lukas once did. Campaigns are now watered down for many top horses, injuried or not look how sparingly Ghostzapper ran in his final year of racing or Medaglia Doro for that matter. It was perhaps bad circumstance we did not see her ship the last 2 years other than the Apple Blossom with The BC being situated at SA two years in a row, regardless she is expected to run in the BC Classic this year and being that it is in Ky she will ship with maybe a race in NY before that. If she is successful, she would more than earned the right to be placed with the other great fillies/mares in this game. She is still writing her destiny in the game, you can't really judge her until the book is complete

Let me get this straight.....

Zenyatta is an all-time great as long as she doesn't have to be compared to horses from all times?

At least now I get it. Maybe it is the Z that puts her over the top.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Let me get this straight.....

Zenyatta is an all-time great as long as she doesn't have to be compared to horses from all times?

At least now I get it. Maybe it is the Z that puts her over the top.

Come on now, do you compare Hank Aaron to Barry Bonds exactly the same, times change and evaluating athletes change. The fact is you really can't compare the two.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by CSC

Come on now, do you compare Hank Aaron to Barry Bonds exactly the same, times change and evaluating athletes change.

Exactly?

Sorry, but when someone says " Zenyatta is the best mare of all time " I take that as a comparison to horses from all times....just as I would assume the same comparison if someone said Barry Bonds was the best of all time.

Who wouldn't?

But, I guess those rules are different for Zenyatta.

However, herein lies part of the problem. There seems a need for Zenyatta's fans to declare her as the best horse ever, or something of the like, which I suppose eminates from their unquenchable envy of Rachel Alexandra for her HOY title, as opposed to just ( and when I say " just " I am rolling my eyes ) settling for some version of " great. " Declaring she is something she is not only diminishes her.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Exactly?

Sorry, but when someone says " Zenyatta is the best mare of all time " I take that as a comparison to horses from all times....just as I would assume the same comparison if someone said Barry Bonds was the best of all time.

Who wouldn't?

But, I guess those rules are different for Zenyatta.

However, herein lies part of the problem. There seems a need for Zenyatta's fans to declare her as the best horse ever, or something of the like, which I suppose eminates from their unquenchable envy of Rachel Alexandra for her HOY title, as opposed to just ( and when I say " just " I am rolling my eyes ) settling for some version of " great. " Declaring she is something she is not only diminishes her.

seriously, who has claimed she is the greatest of all time on this board, other than maybe Smooth Operator?

[CSC]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Exactly?

Sorry, but when someone says " Zenyatta is the best mare of all time " I take that as a comparison to horses from all times....just as I would assume the same comparison if someone said Barry Bonds was the best of all time.

Who wouldn't?

But, I guess those rules are different for Zenyatta.

However, herein lies part of the problem. There seems a need for Zenyatta's fans to declare her as the best horse ever, or something of the like, which I suppose eminates from their unquenchable envy of Rachel Alexandra for her HOY title, as opposed to just ( and when I say " just " I am rolling my eyes ) settling for some version of " great. " Declaring she is something she is not only diminishes her.

I would think all of the 3, maybe 4 Zenyatta fans on this board never would say she is the best racemare of all time at this point, plus I don't think anyone other than SO really cares about HOY in 09 or 10, but that's his schtick and considering the over the top admiration of the one filly here for the past year, it is refreshing to some or atleast to myself it is.