Excellent Angle: D Wayne Off

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by 3kings

In the last 8-10 years almost everyone would trade their resumes. He hasn't done much except run horses in wrong spots in the major races so he could be in the spotlight. Most of these horses probably would have been better served being developed slowly than rushed so that Lukas could still seem relevant.

Yes, that is exactly right. That is what I admire about guys like Whittingham. Whittingham knew that most of his horses would be better served being developed slowly so that they would last. But by the same token, when Whittingham had a great horse that was sound, that he knew could handle the rigors of the Derby, he would run.

That is what separates the good trainers from the bad trainers. The good trainers listen to their horses and let the horse tell them what they're ready to do. The good trainers don't simply run in the big race no matter what simply because the horse is eligible.

A good example is Todd Pletcher. He could have run Rule, Interactiff, and Aikenite in the Derby. These horses were all in the top 20 but Todd didn't run them because he knew the Derby was not a good spot for those horses. He wasn't going to run just for the sake of running. He's knows that these horses are good horses and will be very useful in other spots.

If D Wayne trained those horses, I'm sure he would have run them all.

[eajinabi]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Yes, that is exactly right. That is what I admire about guys like Whittingham. Whittingham knew that most of his horses would be better served being developed slowly so that they would last. But by the same token, when Whittingham had a great horse that was sound, that he knew could handle the rigors of the Derby, he would run.

That is what separates the good trainers from the bad trainers. The good trainers listen to their horses and let the horse tell them what they're ready to do. The good trainers don't simply run in the big race no matter what simply because the horse is eligible.

A good example is Todd Pletcher. He could have run Rule, Interactiff, and Aikenite in the Derby. These horses were all in the top 20 but Todd didn't run them because he knew the Derby was not a good spot for those horses. He wasn't going to run just for the sake of running. He's knows that these horses are good horses and will be very useful in other spots.

If D Wayne trained those horses, I'm sure he would have run them all.

I agree Whitingham was a trainer with great talent. Trainers today give thier horses long layoffs and juice thier horses but it does nothing to extend thier careers. How many top horses have you seen run past 10 lifetime starts in thier career nowadays.

Lukas method of training did not involve lightly racing and long extended layoffs. He liked to run horses in races (often races they did not belong in) into form. Spain is a good example of that. So If he is 0 for 25 at CD meet does this attribute to him juicing his horses too much or not at all?

How does trainers like Steve Asmussen, Rudy Rodriguez, Mike Mitchell, Jeff Mullins etc get a pass while Lukas is singled-out like a criminal.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by eajinabi

I agree Whitingham was a trainer with great talent. Trainers today give thier horses long layoffs and juice thier horses but it does nothing to extend thier careers. How many top horses have you seen run past 10 lifetime starts in thier career nowadays.

Lukas method of training did not involve lightly racing and long extended layoffs. He liked to run horses in races (often races they did not belong in) into form. Spain is a good example of that. So If he is 0 for 25 at CD meet does this attribute to him juicing his horses too much or not at all?

How does trainers like Steve Asmussen, Rudy Rodriguez, Mike Mitchell, Jeff Mullins etc get a pass while Lukas is singled-out like a criminal.

The original point of this thread was that D Wayne is not a very good trainer. His numbers have been lousy for years. He did great back in the 1980s for a number of reasons but those days are over.

With regards to him being 0 for 25 at Churchill, it's really not that shocking. He doesn't do well any more against tough competition. He does his best at places like Oaklawn Park in the winter when he's running horses he paid $200,000 for against horses that were bought for $20,000.

I don't know what you define as "juicing". Most of the top trainers do make full use of their vets. There are tons of legal drugs that are very expensive that will help most horses. With regard to Lukas' current use of vets, I would guess that his vet bills are still extremely high. His horses have always tended to be really sore so he has always had to rely on his vets.

You asked about a few other trainers. Mike Mitchell is basically a claiming trainer. He doesn't usually get many expensive young horses. He has a reputation of being a claiming trainer that magically moves a lot of horses up overnight but he also breaks down a lot of horses. I always thought he was a real butcher dating back to the 1980s.

The reason I dislike Lukas so much is because he was always such a butcher. As I've mentioned before, at one time he was breaking down so many horses that some insurance companies wouldn't even insure his horses. That's really saying something because horse insurance is a great business. They usually won't turn anyone down.

I don't know if you ever talk to any trainers, but if you do, ask them what they think of Lukas. I've never talked to a single trainer that thinks is a good trainer. I know a ton of trainers and I don't know a single one that respects Lukas as a trainer. They all respect Frankel. They all respect Whittingham. They all respect Pletcher. But none of them respect Lukas.

[fpsoxfan]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

The original point of this thread was that D Wayne is not a very good trainer. His numbers have been lousy for years. He did great back in the 1980s for a number of reasons but those days are over.

With regards to him being 0 for 25 at Churchill, it's really not that shocking. He doesn't do well any more against tough competition. He does his best at places like Oaklawn Park in the winter when he's running horses he paid $200,000 for against horses that were bought for $20,000.

I don't know what you define as "juicing". Most of the top trainers do make full use of their vets. There are tons of legal drugs that are very expensive that will help most horses. With regard to Lukas' current use of vets, I would guess that his vet bills are still extremely high. His horses have always tended to be really sore so he has always had to rely on his vets.

You asked about a few other trainers. Mike Mitchell is basically a claiming trainer. He doesn't usually get many expensive young horses. He has a reputation of being a claiming trainer that magically moves a lot of horses up overnight but he also breaks down a lot of horses. I always thought he was a real butcher dating back to the 1980s.

The reason I dislike Lukas so much is because he was always such a butcher. As I've mentioned before, at one time he was breaking down so many horses that some insurance companies wouldn't even insure his horses. That's really saying something because horse insurance is a great business. They usually won't turn anyone down.

I don't know if you ever talk to any trainers, but if you do, ask them what they think of Lukas. I've never talked to a single trainer that thinks is a good trainer. I know a ton of trainers and I don't know a single one that respects Lukas as a trainer. They all respect Frankel. They all respect Whittingham. They all respect Pletcher. But none of them respect Lukas.

It certainly doesn't help that most of his major clients have now passed. I'm having a hard time with your argument about Lukas' training abilities. The man has a very respectable resume that any trainer would love to have, yet you are trying to diminish a man because of his recent lack of success. You are also doing it in a way where you are making accusations that are lacking fact. The steroid thing is really quite comical. I'm sure you have facts to back this up.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by fpsoxfan

It certainly doesn't help that most of his major clients have now passed. I'm having a hard time with your argument about Lukas' training abilities. The man has a very respectable resume that any trainer would love to have, yet you are trying to diminish a man because of his recent lack of success. You are also doing it in a way where you are making accusations that are lacking fact. The steroid thing is really quite comical. I'm sure you have facts to back this up.

I don't know what to tell you. If you want to believe the guy was a really good trainer, that is fine. As I said before, I don't know a single trainer that thinks he is a good trainer. Even back in the 1980s and 1990s, everyone would cringe watching his horses train in the morning. His horses would hobble by. You've never seen a guy whose horses were so sore. That is one of the reasons why everyone thinks he is so bad. He had so many sore horses and he refused to give them a break. A ton of them used to break down.

With regard to steroids, everyone was using them the last 15 years or so until they recently banned them. But the guys who started using them before anyone else, back in the early 1980s, had a huge edge. If you don't believe that, I don't know what to tell you.

By the way, Lukas didn't lose Gene Klein because he passed away. they had a huge falling out before before Klein passed away.

[eajinabi]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I don't know what to tell you. If you want to believe the guy was a really good trainer, that is fine. As I said before, I don't know a single trainer that thinks he is a good trainer. Even back in the 1980s and 1990s, everyone would cringe watching his horses train in the morning. His horses would hobble by. You've never seen a guy whose horses were so sore. That is one of the reasons why everyone thinks he is so bad. He had so many sore horses and he refused to give them a break. A ton of them used to break down.

With regard to steroids, everyone was using them the last 15 years or so until they recently banned them. But the guys who started using them before anyone else, back in the early 1980s, had a huge edge. If you don't believe that, I don't know what to tell you.

By the way, Lukas didn't lose Gene Klein because he passed away. they had a huge falling out before before Klein passed away.

In the 80's and 90's Lukas had the creme of the crop stock as far as pedigree and money spent on horses. Its not like he made a 10k claimer into a derby winner. If that was the case I would support your accusation of Lukas using steroids.

Since you like to support Pletcher a lot, then maybe you dont realize he was Lukas assistant for years before being a big time trainer he is now. Is all of Pletchers knowledge in training from Lukas or a textbook?

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by eajinabi

In the 80's and 90's Lukas had the creme of the crop stock as far as pedigree and money spent on horses.

And that's what makes him a good trainer? He juiced his way to the top and got a bunch of great stock as a result. After his top assistants left, he hit the skids and he has no idea what the hell he's doing anymore.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by eajinabi

In the 80's and 90's Lukas had the creme of the crop stock as far as pedigree and money spent on horses. Its not like he made a 10k claimer into a derby winner. If that was the case I would support your accusation of Lukas using steroids.

Since you like to support Pletcher a lot, then maybe you dont realize he was Lukas assistant for years before being a big time trainer he is now. Is all of Pletchers knowledge in training from Lukas or a textbook?

Part of Lukas' success was having the most money to spend and the creme of the crop horses. I totally agree with that.

With regard to his assistants, as I have stated in other threads, D Wayne was very good at hiring very good people. But he didn't teach these people how to train. He hired assistants that could run the show themselves. He hired the best people. Lukas' son was a great trainer. Jeff was a big reason for Lukas' success. Losing Jeff and all the other great assistants was a big blow to the operation.

As I've stated in other threads, Todd doesn't train anything like Lukas. They are polar opposites. Their whole philosophies are completely different.

And as I've said before, when you hear interviews with Todd or Kiaran McLaughlin and they are asked what they learned from Lukas, they never mention anything about training. They say they learned how to run a big operation and they learned how to get owners and that type of thing. They never mention anything about training.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Yes, that is exactly right. That is what I admire about guys like Whittingham. Whittingham knew that most of his horses would be better served being developed slowly so that they would last. But by the same token, when Whittingham had a great horse that was sound, that he knew could handle the rigors of the Derby, he would run.

That is what separates the good trainers from the bad trainers. The good trainers listen to their horses and let the horse tell them what they're ready to do. The good trainers don't simply run in the big race no matter what simply because the horse is eligible.

A good example is Todd Pletcher. He could have run Rule, Interactiff, and Aikenite in the Derby. These horses were all in the top 20 but Todd didn't run them because he knew the Derby was not a good spot for those horses. He wasn't going to run just for the sake of running. He's knows that these horses are good horses and will be very useful in other spots.

If D Wayne trained those horses, I'm sure he would have run them all.

You're right, Pletcher has never run a horse that didn't belong in the Derby.

[3kings]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

You're right, Pletcher has never run a horse that didn't belong in the Derby.

In many cases the owners may have one wanted to run. He wasn't pushing the horses into the race so he could seem relevent. That is my impression of why Lukas will do anything to get his horses into the derby etc....

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by 3kings

In many cases the owners may have one wanted to run. He wasn't pushing the horses into the race so he could seem relevent. That is my impression of why Lukas will do anything to get his horses into the derby etc....

I completely agree.