Discreet Cat earns 115 Beyer Speed Figure

[Bogey]

Joel,

That was a disgusting display of talent. I hope they decide to run him in the BC Mile. I just think it would be great for racing to see him square off with Gorgeous George.

BTW, I know you have been with these two since the start of their careers.

From what I hear, Goldolphine is going to skip the BC with Discreet Cat. I hear it is about an 85% chance the horse is going to go in the Cigar Mile. They will keep him around until the Dubai World Cup and then we prob won't ever see him again.

[Gander]

Godolphin may have Discreet Cat but us NY'ers have Funny Cide and Dave

Originally Posted by Bogey

Joel,

That was a disgusting display of talent. I hope they decide to run him in the BC Mile. I just think it would be great for racing to see him square off with Gorgeous George.

BTW, I know you have been with these two since the start of their careers.

I do not see him accelerating on the grass like he does on the dirt. Interesting enough,l he does miove like a turf horse with his high knee action and sort of "bicycle style" bio mechanics, but his pedigree is strictly for dirt IMO...Now, can he be a graded stakes winner on the turf?..Sure, he's talented to do probably about anything - But, can he beat a specialist like George Washington in his first start over the surface next month at Churchill Downs?...I seriously doubt it.....a little too much to ask...George Washington has some serious turf class...Fallon and Kinane have both said that he is one of the best horses they've ever gotten on - which says alot coming out of that camp...

I agree it would be fun to see him somewhere on BC day, but the Classic would fit him best IMO...If they turned him back to six furlongs after going a mile, I'm not sure I'd like him as much as progressing in distance...Don't get me wrong, he could win the Sprint because of his natural high cruising speed, but i think it would be a much harder race for him because any misfortune is hard to overcome in that race because it is a full field of horses blitzing the entire way...the Mile will be the same way...horses that win those two races are ones who can overcome some sort of obstacles and since Discreet Cat hasn't been tested yet this year I would question how he'd handle having to go too wwde, race too fast early, or get stopped and wait for a hole to open, etc. in a race of that caliber...it usually requires some luck and a battle-tested horse on top of being good to win those two races....positioning in the 1 1/4-mile Classic is so much easier, as is the pace scenario and room for error....

I think if they run him in the BC Classic that he will be no worse than second behind his stablemate...i really think so.....his dam won the 1 1/4-mile Alabama at Saratoga when she was 3 and she is by stamina influence Private Account - so I think the classic disatnce won't be an issue...he has already embarrassed horses like Simpatico Bribon, Invasor, etc.going 1 1/8 miles in the UAE Derby....

My best guess is that they do run him in the Cigar Mile at AQU and go back to Dubai and run him in the WOrld Cup against Bernardini in a World Cup that would actually be worth watching for once in the last few years IMO..There was originally talk of hin shipping to Churchill DOwns to train ad actually pre-entering in the Classic ONLY as a back up if something were to happen to Bernardini to cause him to defect at the last minute....Also, Discreet Cat would run in the 1 1/8-mile Clark (G1) at Churchill Downs later in October since he would be on the grounds as a BC Classic back-up....

But i guess the Cigar Mile looks like the likely spot now...I think by hearing their logic that they belive that he is at his best a Miler, which they may be right about that....

Whatever the hell he is, he is a freak and i'm just glad horse racing enthusiests like ourselves have a chance to see horses of this magnitude run....you know, say what you will about the Shieks, but the bottomline is that they have the money and love for racing to keep horses like Bernardini and DC in training for a while because they could care less about getting that Huge stallion deal....money is no object, that is why in a way this is a good thing that they own the best horses in the world...it gives our sport a better chance to create stars and an identity in the mainstream IMO....

I'll say this, i is VERY clear to me that DC has and willhave some serious health issues at some point probably in the near future....he is NOT a pretty mover at all....so if you enjoy watching him run, be glad the Sheiks have him because they wil get him right and keep running him as long as it is nothing really bad and controllable with time.....Think about if some ownership like Cash is King owned the horse and he had the LEAST little thing go wrong with him....he would be retired and sold to a stud farm in a heart beat....thyat is a fact..

Another interesting theory to chew on is this:

I would bet that DC is worse off health wise right now than Afleet Alex ever was when they retired him.....not knocking those guys..just an example I chose to use....the Sheiks have the non-money-driven interest in our sport that will keep DC in the game well beyond any other owner would...that you can be sure of...

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

Another interesting theory to chew on is this:

I would bet that DC is worse off health wise right now than Afleet Alex ever was when they retired him.....not knocking those guys..just an example I chose to use....the Sheiks have the non-money-driven interest in our sport that will keep DC in the game well beyond any other owner would...that you can be sure of...

They sure have killed horses at a higher rate than most owners. Oh snap!!

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

They sure have killed horses at a higher rate than most owners. Oh snap!!

Don't be so picky.

And Joel, please, stop reiterating that Pretty Discreet won the Alabama as though that gives Discreet Cat distance breeding. Do you remember that Alabama?

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Don't be so picky.

And Joel, please, stop reiterating that Pretty Discreet won the Alabama as though that gives Discreet Cat distance breeding. Do you remember that Alabama?

Bottomline:

He CRUISED in the 1 1/8-mile UAE Derby over some pretty heavy hitters, and I coud care less how she did it, she is a PRIVATE ACCOUNT....there are very few more stamina-laden influences in our game.....I believe Discreet Cat is the best horse in the world around one turn and that Bernardini is the best horse in the world around two turns - thus I think the further they go the more advantage Bernardini has over DC (1 1/4 miles), but I rerally believe DC is classy enough to still be second in the BC Classic - even if it isn't his best distance....

Bernadini has been annoited way too early. If you see something special in his ability to warrant this kind of assessment, tell us exactly what it is. He has yet to be pushed. Until a horse is pushed by COMPETETION, I withhold judgement unless I see something physically clear about his running mechanics that makes him superior.

LITF showed me some clear mechanical signs. So did Mineshaft. I can tell you exactly what I saw. Smarty Jones, I saw a great runner by the way he ran the Belmont, mechanically, the aforementioned were better to my eye than Smarty. What are Bernardini's mechanics that warrent the adulation, cause he has yet to be pushed?

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Bernadini has been annoited way too early. If you see something special in his ability to warrant this kind of assessment, tell us exactly what it is. He has yet to be pushed. Until a horse is pushed by COMPETETION, I withhold judgement unless I see something physically clear about his running mechanics that makes him superior.

LITF showed me some clear mechanical signs. So did Mineshaft. I can tell you exactly what I saw. Smarty Jones, I saw a great runner by the way he ran the Belmont, mechanically, the aforementioned were better to my eye than Smarty. What are Bernardini's mechanics that warrent the adulation, cause he has yet to be pushed?

His power and physique. The way he takes charge of a race. The way that he annihilates his competition. His explosive turn of foot. His character on the track. The fact that he can rate or lead. The way that he moves, so fluid and even and powerful. Even his eye…. When I watch him, I know that I am seeing something special. It is the way that he wins, and the way that he looks while he is winning, not just his fast times or his margin of victory.

The mechanics of a champion racehorse are definitely there. At least, I see them, and so do many others.

Originally Posted by pgardn

Bernadini has been annoited way too early. If you see something special in his ability to warrant this kind of assessment, tell us exactly what it is. He has yet to be pushed. Until a horse is pushed by COMPETETION, I withhold judgement unless I see something physically clear about his running mechanics that makes him superior.

LITF showed me some clear mechanical signs. So did Mineshaft. I can tell you exactly what I saw. Smarty Jones, I saw a great runner by the way he ran the Belmont, mechanically, the aforementioned were better to my eye than Smarty. What are Bernardini's mechanics that warrent the adulation, cause he has yet to be pushed?

It is funny you say Bernardini and talk mechanics without rementioning his name because that is one of his strengths...he is a monster of an animal that moves IMPECCABLY...he moves like a cat and his hooves never appear to be on the ground for very long duirng his natural gait...If you can't see the superior athleticism that he possesses than I'm sorry about that because it is VERY evident judging by the way he carries himself, the way he moves, his beautiful pedigree and physique, his disposition and classy features and look that he is a champion to me...very clear he is something special and I don't throw that word around a lot in this game....you always look for something to knock in a horse and he has nothing...none, nada....or at least i haven't found anything looking at him with high scrutiny....I evaluate the upper echelon of horses by the number of weaknesses i percieve that they have, and he is the only horse I've ever seen that has none in my book...he rates out a 10 on my scale....he is as close to perfect as you'll ever see in a horse..

I believe he is the best horse we've had in our game the last 25 years...I really do...and when I say 'best horse' I mean that in a veryb thorough way...I look at him physically, how talented he is, his pedigree and what he will offer in the breeding sheds, etc.....the full cycle of how he could impact our sport....and I've come to the conclusion that there has been no better in my lifetime.....he is horse that could change our industry....100% impactful on and off the track in the breeding sheds...these don't come along but maybe once every 20-30 years....I know thats high praise and may will highly disagree, but I've been saying this since May and it is funny how everytime he cruises that I get less and less people disagreeing with me ....

BTW, the Shieks have convictions that run deeper than trying to win a race IMO...I just don't see them as being the character of people to feel like they have to cheat...I just don't...t makes no sense at all....They cut people's hands off over there whe you steal...I just cannot see it....those people over there have a MUCH stricter civil code and value system than Americans do on average....just saying...

Also, they love when the American's come to World Cup day..Why would they jeopardize that? Money is never an issue with them, and if cheating did happen there, I would bet aboyut anything that the high-ups had NO knowledge of it.....think about it...

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

Bottomline:

He CRUISED in the 1 1/8-mile UAE Derby over some pretty heavy hitters, and I coud care less how she did it, she is a PRIVATE ACCOUNT....there are very few more stamina-laden influences in our game.....I believe Discreet Cat is the best horse in the world around one turn and that Bernardini is the best horse in the world around two turns - thus I think the further they go the more advantage Bernardini has over DC (1 1/4 miles), but I rerally believe DC is classy enough to still be second in the BC Classic - even if it isn't his best distance....

Really...." He CRUISED in the 1 1/8-mile UAE Derby over some pretty heavy hitters "...you must be once again referring to that heavy hitter Testimony who other than a couple inexplicable performances in, according to you, drug-free Dubai couldn't be competitive with 35 claimers in the US...or perhaps you haven't noticed his two recent performances....if you can even call them that. Give me a break. If you are going to in any way insist that the real Invasor showed up that day, and for that matter any of the other supposed good horses ( including the one who's trainer claims his horse was doped ), then I suggest you get medical attention.

I'm not saying he doesn't necessarily have some distance in his pedigree, but to say about Pretty Discreet's Alabama victory, which YOU have cited more than once to argue Discreet Cat's distance pedigree, " you could care less how she did it " is ridiculous and, frankly, beneath you. Or, I suppose, you think Conquistador Cielo's wire to wire romp in the mud in the Belmont Stakes solidified him as a true mile and a half horse.

Ya know, even Godolphin has expressed serious concerns about his distance limitations....and I KNOW you care what they think.

The only thing that was good about that Alabama win was that it caused a monster carryover at the Spa. Other than that I'd have to say it may have been the worst edition in history.

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

They sure have killed horses at a higher rate than most owners. Oh snap!!

Nah, I don't think so...per proportion of how involved they are, they usually do VERY well by the horses they have in looking out for their helath and best interest...Electrocutionist had a heart attack and for anybody who understands horse health knows that it is totally genetic and a defection he was born with...that would have been uncontollable the greatest horseman in the world....Dubai Millanium and Tempera both died from non-racing related stuff....I can't think of any of their horses that have died on the track in recent memory...they do a great job doing whats in the horse's best helath interest these days and I really think that is a primary reason that they are enjoying the high level of success they are now....just my opinion..

A prime example is Discreet Cat.....if MOST American trainers had him (I won't mention names), DC would have been thrust into the Derby...Hell, the Shieks would have probably dne that too a few years ago...But now they are more disciplined because they have learned that if you do right by the horse that things will usually play out the best way for you in the long run....

You cannot acuse them of being bad horsemen...thats for sure...they have not always done the smartest things considering the capital they invest (Coolmore out-managed them for YAESR with less oney invested) but they are getting better and smarter now...

Part of the reason they also didn't have the level of success that other big owners had for a long time was because they didn't cheat....I commend their honesty and it is paying dividends now...

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

Part of the reason they also didn't have the level of success that other big owners had for a long time was because they didn't cheat....I commend their honesty and it is paying dividends now...

Not accusing them of anything but I have no idea how you can insist they are necessarily any more innocent than everyobody else ( other than your unnatural affection for them ).

When you figure out how Testimony finished six lengths behind Discreet Cat, and two lengths in front of Invasor, let me know.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Not accusing them of anything but I have no idea how you can insist they are necessarily any more innocent than everyobody else ( other than your unnatural affection for them ).

When you figure out how Testimony finished six lengths behind Discreet Cat, and two lengths in front of Invasor, let me know.

That is racing, BTW....everybody knows that when the top contenders get their hearts broken by the best horse (in this case DC) they begin to really flale in the stretch when the winner is runnig away from them and their not used to losing...when there is a runaway winner of a race you OFTEN see crappy plodding-style horses come along and close to clunk-up in the exotic placings without ever seriously threatening...I believe this is because horses who are not used to losing and get their herarts and confidence shattered when they can't match strides with a horse...I see it all the time...it is actually a classic handicapping angle if you can predict a runaway winner....

Horses like Simpatico Bribon and Invasor were actuallyb trying to win the race and trying to do so from the 3/8 pole to the wire....while a horse like Testamony, who did not have to ship and was familiar and confortable with the surroundings, wasn't trying to win the race so he didn't take out of his conventional style and comfort zone....

If the best horses always finished in the order they were supposed to run this game would be extinct....By your theory, a horse like Super Frolic is better than Sun King then if the only time they ran against each other Super Frolic clearly beat him by finishing 4th when Sun King faded well back in last yera's BC Classic, right?...No....Sun King was TRYING to win the race and got caught up in an ambitious pace before getting his head handed to him by Saint Liam and Flower Alley on the far turn, while Supah Blitz enjoyed a perfect trip and picked up the pieces for 4th at 70-1 while never threatening to win the race....it happens all of the time, man....you know that...

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

That is racing, BTW....everybody knows that when the top contenders get their hearts broken by the best horse (in this case DC) they begin to really flale in the stretch when the winner is runnig away from them and their not used to losing...when there is a runaway winner of a race you OFTEN see crappy plodding-style horses come along and close to clunk-up in the exotic placings without ever seriously threatening...I believe this is because horses who are not used to losing and get their herarts and confidence shattered when they can't match strides with a horse...I see it all the time...it is actually a classic handicapping angle if you can predict a runaway winner....

Horses like Simpatico Bribon and Invasor were actuallyb trying to win the race and trying to do so from the 3/8 pole to the wire....while a horse like Testamony, who did not have to ship and was familiar and confortable with the surroundings, wasn't trying to win the race so he didn't take out of his conventional style and comfort zone....

If the best horses always finished in the order they were supposed to run this game would be extinct....By your theory, a horse like Super Frolic is better than Sun King then if the only time they ran against each other Super Frolic clearly beat him by finishing 4th when Sun King faded well back in last yera's BC Classic, right?...No....Sun King was TRYING to win the race and got caught up in an ambitious pace before getting his head handed to him by Saint Liam and Flower Alley on the far turn, while Supah Blitz enjoyed a perfect trip and picked up the pieces for 4th at 70-1 while never threatening to win the race....it happens all of the time, man....you know that...

Don't f'n lecture me and talk down to me....especially with that kind of crap.

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

That is racing, BTW....everybody knows that when the top contenders get their hearts broken by the best horse (in this case DC) they begin to really flale in the stretch when the winner is runnig away from them and their not used to losing...when there is a runaway winner of a race you OFTEN see crappy plodding-style horses come along and close to clunk-up in the exotic placings without ever seriously threatening...I believe this is because horses who are not used to losing and get their herarts and confidence shattered when they can't match strides with a horse...I see it all the time...it is actually a classic handicapping angle if you can predict a runaway winner....

Horses like Simpatico Bribon and Invasor were actuallyb trying to win the race and trying to do so from the 3/8 pole to the wire....while a horse like Testamony, who did not have to ship and was familiar and confortable with the surroundings, wasn't trying to win the race so he didn't take out of his conventional style and comfort zone....

If the best horses always finished in the order they were supposed to run this game would be extinct....By your theory, a horse like Super Frolic is better than Sun King then if the only time they ran against each other Super Frolic clearly beat him by finishing 4th when Sun King faded well back in last yera's BC Classic, right?...No....Sun King was TRYING to win the race and got caught up in an ambitious pace before getting his head handed to him by Saint Liam and Flower Alley on the far turn, while Supah Blitz enjoyed a perfect trip and picked up the pieces for 4th at 70-1 while never threatening to win the race....it happens all of the time, man....you know that...

Joel, I really don't think anyone takes that day seriously anymore.
After Almutawakel won off like the "champion" he was(LOL!!) and couldnt hit the board in a money allowance race that fall at Belmont, well, all I can say is thats SOME form reversal.
And after The most disgraceful thing I've ever seen in the Brass Hat debacle, I'd have to say anyone who brings a truly good horse over there has to be kidding. I don't think its a very level playing field over there.

That being said, I have no gripes with calling Discreet cat potentially one of the fastest milers in decades, provided he actually beats someone besides Valid Notebook, Superfly, Testimony(LOL!!), and Accountforgold. Thats not exactly an allstar cast there.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

I'll say this, i is VERY clear to me that DC has and willhave some serious health issues at some point probably in the near future....he is NOT a pretty mover at all....so if you enjoy watching him run, be glad the Sheiks have him because they wil get him right and keep running him as long as it is nothing really bad and controllable with time.....Think about if some ownership like Cash is King owned the horse and he had the LEAST little thing go wrong with him....he would be retired and sold to a stud farm in a heart beat....thyat is a fact..

I agree with you in that DC is not a pretty mover. As I have said in other posts, he runs like a sore, unsound horse, and he hits the ground really hard with his front end. He has a snappy action instead of a fluid action. That is why I don't think that he would ever be a good turf horse even with his high knee action. Now, I think Bernardini could run on the turf...

I don't know Joel about Afleet Alex. Afleet Alex's injury was pretty bad. I think that they had every intention of running him until he experienced that condylar fracture. I believe that the screw did him in. I think that they knew in the back of their minds that he was finished when he suffered that injury, and tried to bring him back to please the public. It was the best thing for Alex to retire him. I would have retired him too. It came to my attention in hindsight that the horse was mismanaged a little bit, and probably had some minor issues going on that turned into a big issue.

I don't know about Cash is King's other horses...