Derby-Oaks Weekend Beyers

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by ibet2win

The Beyer speed figures are useless in my opinion. After all, time only matters when you are in jail. Andy Beyer has made a mint selling them i guess and good for him, this is America and we love to buy useless things we don't need lol. The only thing more useless i have seen is that Moss Pace Figure crap. I normally just pretend those are ink smudges on my paper.

So what do you use?

[ibet2win]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

So what do you use?

All the things in the form that Beyer used to handicap before he came up with that ridiculous number system. You know, back when he was still picking winners. Workouts, company lines, trainer stats, pedigree, the stuff that has been around forever. The idea that a bunch of infallible humans can rate every horse in every race run every day and come up with some phantom number that indicates a horse's ability to win his next race just misses the mark with me. If they meant anything, wouldn't they lead us all to the winner and every winner be 1/5??

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by ibet2win

All the things in the form that Beyer used to handicap before he came up with that ridiculous number system. You know, back when he was still picking winners. Workouts, company lines, trainer stats, pedigree, the stuff that has been around forever. The idea that a bunch of infallible humans can rate every horse in every race run every day and come up with some phantom number that indicates a horse's ability to win his next race just misses the mark with me. If they meant anything, wouldn't they lead us all to the winner and every winner be 1/5??

I don't know which ludicrous argument to refute first, so I'll just say that using the hackneyed cliche "time only matters when you're in jail" about a sport called horse racing is akin to saying points don't matter in basketball and runs don't matter in baseball.

The other thing I love is the consistent insinuation by the flat earth figure hating crew that anyone who dares glance at any kind of speed number totally thinks every number is perfect and that figs are the only handicapping factor that needs to be considered. As if the rest of us who aren't deathly afraid of numbers don't also use workouts (really?), company lines, trainer stats, pedigrees, etc.

[hockey2315]

Don't waste your time, Joey.

[the_fat_man]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

I don't know which ludicrous argument to refute first, so I'll just say that using the hackneyed cliche "time only matters when you're in jail" about a sport called horse racing is akin to saying points don't matter in basketball and runs don't matter in baseball.

The other thing I love is the consistent insinuation by the flat earth figure hating crew that anyone who dares glance at any kind of speed number totally thinks every number is perfect and that figs are the only handicapping factor that needs to be considered. As if the rest of us who aren't deathly afraid of numbers don't also use workouts (really?), company lines, trainer stats, pedigrees, etc.

Why is it that all you BEYER/DRF types seem to spin all the arguments your way. If you didn't go around FLEXING all the time, using your SLOW and FAST BS as if it were some kind of IRREFRAGABLE insight, then others wouldn't feel the need to throw the **** back at you. There's a reason, JOEY, why when they discuss the Tour de France, they never speak about how FAST a particular stage was (with the exception of the time trials). This is because they understand that there are many factors that go into WHY a particular stage was run in a particular time. And, that noting only the final time is to GROSSLY under model it.

It's already been conceded that BEYERS are USELESS on SYNTHETICS. Even CJ is on record. With all the synthetic horses crossing over and kicking the DIRT horses' asses, pretty soon the worth of Beyers on dirt will come into question.

I personally have no problem with using models in racing. I just have issues with poorly constructed ones. You know, the type you need to AD HOC tweak. And, all the FLEXING by the adherents of this method.

[ibet2win]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

I don't know which ludicrous argument to refute first, so I'll just say that using the hackneyed cliche "time only matters when you're in jail" about a sport called horse racing is akin to saying points don't matter in basketball and runs don't matter in baseball.

The other thing I love is the consistent insinuation by the flat earth figure hating crew that anyone who dares glance at any kind of speed number totally thinks every number is perfect and that figs are the only handicapping factor that needs to be considered. As if the rest of us who aren't deathly afraid of numbers don't also use workouts (really?), company lines, trainer stats, pedigrees, etc.

I don't hate the figures i'm just telling you i don't put much stock in them, you feel free to glance at anything you want. I don't think they lead you to winners only to favorites and you don't need a number to tell you who the favorite ought to be, i'm sure you can look at a form for two minutes and know that or you would have stopped playing a long time ago.

[the_fat_man]

Originally Posted by ibet2win

All the things in the form that Beyer used to handicap before he came up with that ridiculous number system. You know, back when he was still picking winners. Workouts, company lines, trainer stats, pedigree, the stuff that has been around forever.

You left out '1st time gelding'. Now, THAT was a HUGE angle pre-numbers.

[pmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by ibet2win

All the things in the form that Beyer used to handicap before he came up with that ridiculous number system. You know, back when he was still picking winners. Workouts, company lines, trainer stats, pedigree, the stuff that has been around forever. The idea that a bunch of infallible humans can rate every horse in every race run every day and come up with some phantom number that indicates a horse's ability to win his next race just misses the mark with me. If they meant anything, wouldn't they lead us all to the winner and every winner be 1/5??

I don't think anyone is saying that.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by ibet2win

All the things in the form that Beyer used to handicap before he came up with that ridiculous number system. You know, back when he was still picking winners. Workouts, company lines, trainer stats, pedigree, the stuff that has been around forever. The idea that a bunch of infallible humans can rate every horse in every race run every day and come up with some phantom number that indicates a horse's ability to win his next race just misses the mark with me. If they meant anything, wouldn't they lead us all to the winner and every winner be 1/5??

Trainer stats have been around forever?

Define forever please.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Trainer stats have been around forever?

Define forever please.

1997 on

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

1997 on

I guess that means this is the year 13ATS?

[ibet2win]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Trainer stats have been around forever?

Define forever please.

Trainer stats were not in the form in 1980 when i started going to the races as a kid, i will give you that. But at least they are a definable, provable number that accurately reports what has gone on.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by ibet2win

Trainer stats were not in the form in 1980 when i started going to the races as a kid, i will give you that. But at least they are a definable, provable number that accurately reports what has gone on.

And how exactly did you accurately have these stats?

[ibet2win]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

And how exactly did you accurately have these stats?

i didn't, apparently you are not paying attention, i conceded that point to you that that is a newer addition to the form that i think is valuable because it is an accurate statement of the facts and not someone's opinion.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by ibet2win

i didn't, apparently you are not paying attention, i conceded that point to you that that is a newer addition to the form that i think is valuable because it is an accurate statement of the facts and not someone's opinion.

I'm very confused by a lot of things in this thread. People keep saying things they don't really seem to mean....how can a moron like me be expected to keep up?

[philcski]

what the figures SHOULD have been for Derby 136 Day:
1 84
2 80
3 79
4 86
5 93
6 91
8 100
9 103
11 92
12 92
13 75