La Troienne discussion

[Indian Charlie]

Hasn't anyone ever considered the following?

1. All the talk of RA not being the same as last year, well, it's due more to her facing decent horses this year as opposed to last. I felt that while yeah, she deserved HOY, all this talk of her all time greatness last year was ridiculous. The same can be said for Zenyatta.

2. This goes hand in hand with point 1. Zardana was undefeated prior to today on dirt. Unrivaled Belle has one loss, in which she went to the shelf immediately afterwards.

To me, she's the same horse she was last year, and I think her training schedule and race riding has helped expose her alleged greatness (all time), as has her competition.

What the hell happened today with Zardana anyways?

[Port Conway Lane]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Hasn't anyone ever considered the following?

1. All the talk of RA not being the same as last year, well, it's due more to her facing decent horses this year as opposed to last. I felt that while yeah, she deserved HOY, all this talk of her all time greatness last year was ridiculous. The same can be said for Zenyatta.

2. This goes hand in hand with point 1. Zardana was undefeated prior to today on dirt. Unrivaled Belle has one loss, in which she went to the shelf immediately afterwards.

To me, she's the same horse she was last year, and I think her training schedule and race riding has helped expose her alleged greatness (all time), as has her competition.

What the hell happened today with Zardana anyways?

All good points especially about the competition. However she ran three (maybe four) huge races last year that were historic in what she as a 3yo filly did accomplish. Her place in history will be appreciated much more 10 years from now. Same with Zenyatta.

[Smooth Operator]

Can only shake my head in DISGUST over what the misguided voters did to one of the TRULY great fillies (Z) of our lifetimes last year.



RA EXPOSED … AGAIN!!!

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Smooth Operator

Can only shake my head in DISGUST over what the misguided voters did to one of the TRULY great fillies (Z) of our lifetimes last year.



RA EXPOSED … AGAIN!!!

Yes. This year they MUST vote on HOY based on how they feel the horse will do in 2011. Voting on the actual year in question is outrageous.

[stonegossard]

Originally Posted by Smooth Operator

Can only shake my head in DISGUST over what the misguided voters did to one of the TRULY great fillies (Z) of our lifetimes last year.



RA EXPOSED … AGAIN!!!

Yes. This year's results should have definitely been taken into consideration when they voted last year. Apparently the voters didn't have a "Go to the future" machine where they could have seen this year's races before voting.

I wonder what you were thinking when RA won up at Sar last year. Probably had to delete the "RA EXPOSED AGAIN" line from your post you were about to write....same thing must have happened after The Haskell as well.

What I don't get is the people who whined that Zenyatta got robbed last year think that this years races should be taken into account. Let it go. RA was the better horse last year. So far this year Zenyatta is the better horse.

And we will once again get to see Zenyatta beat a field of hopless horses back in So Cal at Hollywood next out. Real adventurous scheduling again by the Moss's. Apparently, unlike the rest of the racing world, they don't find it embarassing to run against 5 horse fields in So Cal.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by stonegossard

. RA was the better horse last year. So far this year Zenyatta is the better horse.

If you want to say RA accomplished more last year and desreved the HoY more than Z, I would agree. Who was the better horse? How can you definitely say?

[tbonds]

Ra vs. Z??
Look over the longer period of time. Z as put together several good years.
Ra has a short span of being good. Hands down the big Z is and will be the better when you compare them.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by tbonds

Ra vs. Z??
Look over the longer period of time. Z as put together several good years.
Ra has a short span of being good. Hands down the big Z is and will be the better when you compare them.

no offense, but you can only compare them if they race against each other.

[stonegossard]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

If you want to say RA accomplished more last year and desreved the HoY more than Z, I would agree. Who was the better horse? How can you definitely say?

Until they face each other nobody can really say who is better. Last year they both were great....but RA definitely accomplished much more. If The Moss's had not played "scared" all year and won the Hollywood Gold Cup or The Pacific Classic, and not faced a bunch of turds last year then one could argue she deserved it. But her campaign up until The BC was embarassing.

Hopefully they get to meet this year to settle the score.

[CSC]

Why should Rachel retire? She has been competitive in 2 races this year losing by no more than a combined length. I'm sure the numbers guys will tell us she will beyer better than the 100 she got in the N.O Ladies and that would put her in the 107 range of the Woodward, so what's wrong with that? Unless people's opinions of her were so sky high to begin with, then maybe it is a big surprise then. She lost to a very good filly and Rachel ran a good race give both some credit.

[Smooth Operator]

Originally Posted by stonegossard

Yes. This year's results should have definitely been taken into consideration when they voted last year. Apparently the voters didn't have a "Go to the future" machine where they could have seen this year's races before voting.

I wonder what you were thinking when RA won up at Sar last year. Probably had to delete the "RA EXPOSED AGAIN" line from your post you were about to write....same thing must have happened after The Haskell as well.

What I don't get is the people who whined that Zenyatta got robbed last year think that this years races should be taken into account. Let it go. RA was the better horse last year. So far this year Zenyatta is the better horse.

And we will once again get to see Zenyatta beat a field of hopless horses back in So Cal at Hollywood next out. Real adventurous scheduling again by the Moss's. Apparently, unlike the rest of the racing world, they don't find it embarassing to run against 5 horse fields in So Cal.

Somehow I don't think you're gunna be able to cut it as a handicapper…



Btw, Cannon, you're wasting your time again. These RA lovers don't want to hear about the horrible to mediocre competition she faced last year. Like the misguided HotY voters, they just block it out … means nothing to them.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Smooth Operator

Btw, Cannon, you're wasting your time again. These RA lovers don't want to hear about the horrible to mediocre competition she faced last year. Like the misguided HotY voters, they just block it out … means nothing to them.

Unlike the universal agreement that Zenyatta's competition last year included 3 mules and a german shepard, there are some ardent RA fans who insist that Macho Again, Mailbu Prayer and Stone legacy are top class.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Unlike the universal agreement that Zenyatta's competition last year included 3 mules and a german shepard, there are some ardent RA fans who insist that Macho Again, Mailbu Prayer and Stone legacy are top class.

I'd take the 2 mules and german sheppard over those 3.

[Smooth Operator]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Unlike the universal agreement that Zenyatta's competition last year included 3 mules and a german shepard, there are some ardent RA fans who insist that Macho Again, Mailbu Prayer and Stone legacy are top class.

I've used words like mule, goat and rat before when describing some horses comp … but never "german shepard".

[stonegossard]

Originally Posted by Smooth Operator

Somehow I don't think you're gunna be able to cut it as a handicapper…



Btw, Cannon, you're wasting your time again. These RA lovers don't want to hear about the horrible to mediocre competition she faced last year. Like the misguided HotY voters, they just block it out … means nothing to them.

As long as there are people like yourself throwing away money into betting pools I will be fine. Thanks for your concern though.

Umm....who faced horrible competition last year? That is hilarious. Go back and look at the fields Zenyatta faced last year and then compare them to what RA faced. Then get back to me.

Otherwise keep on betting.........

[Smooth Operator]

Originally Posted by stonegossard

As long as there are people like yourself throwing away money into betting pools I will be fine. Thanks for your concern though.

Umm....who faced horrible competition last year? That is hilarious. Go back and look at the fields Zenyatta faced last year and then compare them to what RA faced. Then get back to me.

Otherwise keep on betting.........

LOL … too funny … Z only whipped the best field assembled in NA last year.


One more jump and the Macho horse is by RA in the Woodward.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Hasn't anyone ever considered the following?

1. All the talk of RA not being the same as last year, well, it's due more to her facing decent horses this year as opposed to last. I felt that while yeah, she deserved HOY, all this talk of her all time greatness last year was ridiculous. The same can be said for Zenyatta.

2. This goes hand in hand with point 1. Zardana was undefeated prior to today on dirt. Unrivaled Belle has one loss, in which she went to the shelf immediately afterwards.

To me, she's the same horse she was last year, and I think her training schedule and race riding has helped expose her alleged greatness (all time), as has her competition.

What the hell happened today with Zardana anyways?

If i had first read your post i would have simply agreed

And Zardana was heard muttering something about the Rockies as they led her back to the barn

[Left Bank]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Hasn't anyone ever considered the following?

1. All the talk of RA not being the same as last year, well, it's due more to her facing decent horses this year as opposed to last. I felt that while yeah, she deserved HOY, all this talk of her all time greatness last year was ridiculous. The same can be said for Zenyatta.

2. This goes hand in hand with point 1. Zardana was undefeated prior to today on dirt. Unrivaled Belle has one loss, in which she went to the shelf immediately afterwards.

To me, she's the same horse she was last year, and I think her training schedule and race riding has helped expose her alleged greatness (all time), as has her competition.

What the hell happened today with Zardana anyways?

It was that airplane ride over the rockies.

[Danzig]

Have yet to see the race since I was at work. I know that racels people said the goal, win or lose today, is the bc. Whether that remains the case we'll have to wait and see. I agree with others who posted that it gets old every time one horse gets a mention, within a few posts, here comes the other. Its a testament to both that they Are only compared to each other.
However, much like stories with two sides, I think the truth about both of these horses lie somewhere in between. They aren't as good as some claim, nor as bad as others say. They both have done amazing things, yet both can be questioned for who they did those things against. Questioning their competition is entirely valid. As for zen being undefeated, that's a rarity for sure -but one has to recall that horses such as peppers pride have done the same. I don't see anyone talking hof for her. And regarding HOY last year....gimme a break. This year has nothing to do with that.
Here's to continued good health and good luck to two exciting distaffers.

[miraja2]

For me it goes like this, the results of the races this year point to the fact that when scribes are making their lists of the top 100 horses of the 21st century (at some point in the distant future) Zenyatta thus far deserves to be ranked higher than Rachel. Her ability to carry her top form from one year to the next is worthy of a lot of credit. A lot of horses - including, it would appear, RA - are simply unable to do that. Zenyatta has also demonstrated real ability on multiple surfaces over her career as a racehorse. For her career full of achievements she deserves - in my opinion - the higher overall regard. Congrats to Zenyatta and her swarms of fans (who bizarrely seem to live vicariously through her) on this achievement.

For me, that remains an entirely different question than the one of who deserved HOY last year. In my mind that was unquestionably Rachel Alexandra, and I don't see how that fact is in any way discredited by today's race, or by anything I wrote in the first paragraph.