Great Forgotten Horses

[smartbid09]

For a horse who holds the record for second fastest derby ever run it's funny how he isn't even listed as one of the top 100 races horses of the 20th century by bloodhorse. Had he not raced against secretariat I believe he might have been put on that list. He certainly could have outrun all other derby runners but the one he ran against on that day.

[justindew]

Rachel Alexandra.

[KirisClown]

This is the first time I've seen Thunder Gulch listed as a "great" horse..

[eajinabi]

Victory Gallop

[Thunder Gulch]

Originally Posted by KirisClown

This is the first time I've seen Thunder Gulch listed as a "great" horse..

What constitutes greatness now with abbreviated careers? Thunder Gulch won a G1 at 2, and had 7 wins in 10 starts as a 3yo, including 4 G1 races. How many horses have ever won 2 of the 3 Triple Crown races, then added the Travers? His last race was a defeat at the hands of Cigar. In most any other year, TG would have been Horse of the Year, but 1995 was a once in a generation year for Cigar.

In his stud career, he produced a HOY, Point Given.

[Gaining Ground]

Originally Posted by Thunder Gulch

What constitutes greatness now with abbreviated careers? Thunder Gulch won a G1 at 2, and had 7 wins in 10 starts as a 3yo, including 4 G1 races. How many horses have ever won 2 of the 3 Triple Crown races, then added the Travers? His last race was a defeat at the hands of Cigar. In most any other year, TG would have been Horse of the Year, but 1995 was a once in a generation year for Cigar.

In his stud career, he produced a HOY, Point Given.

i dont think horses had abbreviated careers in 1995 like they do now. not to nitpick, but the remsen is a grade 2, he didnt win a grade 1 as a 2 year old.

he did have a very good 3 year old year though. he was a very good horse. but i dont think he did enough to say he was great. i think greatness should be reserved for horses who show high quality for at least 2 seasons

[KirisClown]

Originally Posted by HomerS

Won three of the four biggest three year old races. Thats pretty rare company

Yes, I know.. also won the Ftn of Youth, Florida Derby, KY Cup Classic, Swaps.

He was a good and consistent horse.. I've just never associated him with the word "great".

[FATPIANO]

Originally Posted by HomerS

Won three of the four biggest three year old races. Thats pretty rare company

Plus he won grade 1's at multiple tracks in multiple states from coast to coast

He should have been Horse of the Year in 1995, Thunder Gulch was a Great one

[Gaining Ground]

Originally Posted by FATPIANO

He should have been Horse of the Year in 1995, Thunder Gulch was a Great one

didnt cigar have a better year in 1995?

[FATPIANO]

Sorry was never a fan of Cigar, IMO Thunder Gulch was better

[KirisClown]

Cigar's 1995..




Thunder Gulch's 1995..

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by smartbid09

For a horse who holds the record for second fastest derby ever run it's funny how he isn't even listed as one of the top 100 races horses of the 20th century by bloodhorse. Had he not raced against secretariat I believe he might have been put on that list. He certainly could have outrun all other derby runners but the one he ran against on that day.

he's third now, isn't he, after monarchos?

[Linny]

Bold N Determined was probably 3yo filly of her year and no one remembers her.
Whenever you ask about "forgotten" horses, everyone says "Sham." By definition, he's not forgotten.

[Pedigree Ann]

Originally Posted by Linny

Bold N Determined was probably 3yo filly of her year and no one remembers her.
Whenever you ask about "forgotten" horses, everyone says "Sham." By definition, he's not forgotten.

Bold 'n Determined won the Oaks (the CCA version), the Spinster, the Santa Susana (now Santa Anita Oaks), Kentucky Oaks, and Fantasy S, and she beat Genuine Risk the only time the pair met, in the Maskette S (G2) at Belmont. But Genuine Risk had all the glamor of being a Kentucky Derby winner, even though she had won only two G1 races all year, while Bold 'n Determined had won five G1s.

[prudery]

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann

Bold 'n Determined won the Oaks (the CCA version), the Spinster, the Santa Susana (now Santa Anita Oaks), Kentucky Oaks, and Fantasy S, and she beat Genuine Risk the only time the pair met, in the Maskette S (G2) at Belmont. But Genuine Risk had all the glamor of being a Kentucky Derby winner, even though she had won only two G1 races all year, while Bold 'n Determined had won five G1s.

Excellent example---she was terrific .

[Linny]

To me Bold N Determined is the most overlooked horse of my (race following) lifetime, which dates to Secretariat. She was probably better than Genuine Risk and yet no one seems to know who she was. She lost the Mother Goose by a nose to Sugar and Spice (Alydar's sister) and but for that nose would have been the only filly to win the KY Oaks and the old NY filly Triple Crown.

[Sightseek]

1980 Maskette

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7nBbPe0R7M

[Merlinsky]

Originally Posted by Danzig

he's third now, isn't he, after monarchos?

Depends on what time you associate with him. I've always heard 1:59 4/5 which puts him ahead of Monarchos, but races then weren't timed to within .01 of a second. Monarchos got it in 1:59.97.

Turns out Sham closed the Derby in 23 3/5 sec, the same as Whirlaway. Unfortunately for Sham, Secretariat did it in :23 flat. Sham is also is co-holder of the stakes record for the Santa Anita Derby with Lucky Debonair and Indian Charlie with 1:47 flat.