Zenyatta: Slayer of Scoundrels

[CSC]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

So if the Washington Nationals go 162-0 on a tour of facing America's high school teams on their own diamonds, the "they beat pure crap" argument would just be a diversion from how truly great the Nationals were and those arguments would be nothing but ways to obfuscate the true quality of that baseball team?

That's a horrible example, short of Zenyatta winning with one leg tied behind her back while conceding 30 lbs to the field because we know 16lbs is certainly not enough to impress, I don't ever think there is anything she can do to impress the naysayers.

[Port Conway Lane]

Originally Posted by CSC

That's a horrible example, short of Zenyatta winning with one leg tied behind her back while conceding 30 lbs to the field because we know 16lbs is certainly not enough to impress, I don't ever think there is anything she can do to impress the naysayers.

She must run a beyer above 120, beat horses that have run beyers above 110 and not have the worst horse to have ever won the race she is in run 2nd.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Port Conway Lane

She must run a beyer above 120, beat horses that have run beyers above 110 and not have the worst horse to have ever won the race she is in run 2nd.

To be truly consistent here, or beat Macho Uno & or Bullsbay carrying 117 while beyering 107 to be considered as great or as great as Princess "when do I find a race without Zenyatta in it" Rachel.

[2Hot4TV]

Blah,Blah, Blah, Zeyatta haters keep trying to find a horse to out run her closing run.

I would like to see her at Belmont with QR in a one turn mile and that long run to the wire.

Who would of thought that a pure closer would be undefeated. 16 for 16 no matter what the pace was and all the Zenyatta haters have to say is that she is a synthetic track over achiver and run against cheap horses. Go figure

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by 2Hot4TV

I would like to see her at Belmont with QR in a one turn mile and that long run to the wire.

I'm glad you mentioned this.

If I had a say in the matter the Met Mile would be the one race I would like to see Zenyatta run in this year.

My guess, before the BC anyways, is the best we'll get is the Delaware Handicap.

I'm guessing for the rest of the year:

Milady
Stephen Foster or Fleur De Lis
Hollywood Gold Cup or Delaware Handicap
Lady's Secret
Breeder's Cup

[prudery]

The only intrigue in seeing her in the Met Mile is Quality Road .

She has not run under 8.5 furlongs since her maiden win at 6.5 furlongs first out .

Perhaps a longer race against QR would do--after all, he is one of two horses considered real opposition .

Now put Rachel in there and it gets interesting --in the Met Mile that is ..

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by prudery

The only intrigue in seeing her in the Met Mile is Quality Road .

She has not run under 8.5 furlongs since her maiden win at 6.5 furlongs first out .

Perhaps a longer race against QR would do--after all, he is one of two horses considered real opposition .

Now put Rachel in there and it gets interesting --in the Met Mile that is ..

A flat mile would presumably contain both sprint types and route types, so she could "accomplish" a lot by winning this one race. I think she's capable of handling a flat mile.

The distance would also favor Quality Road IMO were he to show up, and in that respect would be a major challenge for Zenyatta.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

A flat mile would presumably contain both sprint types and route types, so she could "accomplish" a lot by winning this one race. I think she's capable of handling a flat mile.

The distance would also favor Quality Road IMO were he to show up, and in that respect would be a major challenge for Zenyatta.

ehh, flat mile for a horse her size I think would be very difficult if there was a quality miler, say at a flat mile she could never catch a really good horse without a total meltdown.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

ehh, flat mile for a horse her size I think would be very difficult if there was a quality miler, say at a flat mile she could never catch a really good horse without a total meltdown.

She would be up against it for sure, but the pace of a top quality mile would in general be rather quick, so a meltdown (and I don't think it needs to be a "total" meltdown, either) wouldn't be out of the ordinary.

Horses of her size, such as Unbridled, Rock Hard Ten, and Forego (there are others--and most of those I mentioned had similar running styles to Zenyatta) were certainly capable at 7f, so extrapolating to a mile is probably not too presumptive.

[prudery]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

A flat mile would presumably contain both sprint types and route types, so she could "accomplish" a lot by winning this one race. I think she's capable of handling a flat mile.

The distance would also favor Quality Road IMO were he to show up, and in that respect would be a major challenge for Zenyatta.

I agree a flat mile is within her scope, but probably will not happen .

The suggested Met Mile scenario is intriguing though ...

[zippyneedsawin]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

I'm glad you mentioned this.

If I had a say in the matter the Met Mile would be the one race I would like to see Zenyatta run in this year.

My guess, before the BC anyways, is the best we'll get is the Delaware Handicap.

I'm guessing for the rest of the year:

Milady
Stephen Foster or Fleur De Lis
Hollywood Gold Cup or Delaware Handicap
Lady's Secret
Breeder's Cup

I'd be shocked.. and happy.. to see Z face males again before the BC... but I doubt it.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

I'm glad you mentioned this.

If I had a say in the matter the Met Mile would be the one race I would like to see Zenyatta run in this year.

My guess, before the BC anyways, is the best we'll get is the Delaware Handicap.

I'm guessing for the rest of the year:

Milady
Stephen Foster or Fleur De Lis
Hollywood Gold Cup or Delaware Handicap
Lady's Secret
Breeder's Cup

I think one thing is certain and Del Mar is just not a real option, she slips around on that track and with the short stretch its need the best place for her, so I can see something in the midwest or late Belmont if they had a race she could run in. Saratoga is not happening either.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

I think one thing is certain and Del Mar is just not a real option, she slips around on that track and with the short stretch its need the best place for her, so I can see something in the midwest or late Belmont if they had a race she could run in. Saratoga is not happening either.

I agree. No chance at Del Mar. Shirreffs doesn't seem to want any of his horses running on the main track there. That's why I presume they'd take the opportunity to "freshen" her up during August/September rather than running out of town.

Personally, I wouldn't fault them for not wanting to ship more than 3 or 4 (including the BC) times in a single year.

That's why the "showcasing" idea put forth by Moss is a bit unrealistic. I thought the best chance to do that would have been for Shirreffs to keep a string at Belmont the second half of the year, with Zenyatta obviously based there.

[DaTruth]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

I'm glad you mentioned this.

If I had a say in the matter the Met Mile would be the one race I would like to see Zenyatta run in this year.

My guess, before the BC anyways, is the best we'll get is the Delaware Handicap.

I'm guessing for the rest of the year:

Milady
Stephen Foster or Fleur De Lis
Hollywood Gold Cup or Delaware Handicap
Lady's Secret
Breeder's Cup

If Moss had guts, he would announce now that the Foster is on their schedule. I doubt she leaves SoCal again this year until the Classic. They are too worried about "perfection" to test her against males on real dirt.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by DaTruth

If Moss had guts, he would announce now that the Foster is on their schedule. I doubt she leaves SoCal again this year until the Classic. They are too worried about "perfection" to test her against males on real dirt.

I think she'll head to CD for a start in either race mentioned, if not because Rachel Alexandra is in one of those, then to get a race over the track prior to the BC.

It kills a lot of birds with one stone.

I think the Delaware Handicap is a slam dunk race (in terms of playing to her strengths--not that she'll definitely go there) and would be about as East Coast as she will get.

[2Hot4TV]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

I'm glad you mentioned this.

If I had a say in the matter the Met Mile would be the one race I would like to see Zenyatta run in this year.

My guess, before the BC anyways, is the best we'll get is the Delaware Handicap.

I'm guessing for the rest of the year:

Milady
Stephen Foster or Fleur De Lis
Hollywood Gold Cup or Delaware Handicap
Lady's Secret
Breeder's Cup

I just think that Zenyatta's running style against the best on Belmonts one turn mile would be the great race to watch as she rolls down that long stretch and the others with no place to hide, only to run faster than the preditor.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by CSC

That's a horrible example, short of Zenyatta winning with one leg tied behind her back while conceding 30 lbs to the field because we know 16lbs is certainly not enough to impress, I don't ever think there is anything she can do to impress the naysayers.

Originally Posted by Port Conway Lane

She must run a beyer above 120, beat horses that have run beyers above 110 and not have the worst horse to have ever won the race she is in run 2nd.

Not so much. It's just something about those who are foaming at the mouth about her greatness when in a 16 race career, she's been great as far as consistency goes, but has not had to actually be "great" to win about 12-13 of those races, because the horses she had to beat were maybe (being generous) Grade III types.

I'm impressed by her. I respect the hell out of her. I had an opinion on some bull$hit awards last year, but don't think Zenyatta is a bad horse. She's a very good, very consistent horse who has been carefully managed and beaten up on horses who belonged in Grade III stakes on their best days.

The reality is that there is nothing short of calling her the greatest mare ever while completely ignoring any objective analysis her competition, and breathing heavily out of my mouth in a panicked way that will *ever* be taken as anything less than a grave insult to Zenyatta by you, CSC. It's not that nobody is impressed. It's that your myopic view on the subject has led you to the point where nobody can objectively say anything about her or the crap she's been beating without you taking it personally and trying to turn it into something personal, some grudge against the horse -- something that it's not.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

So if the Washington Nationals go 162-0 on a tour of facing America's high school teams on their own diamonds, the "they beat pure crap" argument would just be a diversion from how truly great the Nationals were and those arguments would be nothing but ways to obfuscate the true quality of that baseball team?

Originally Posted by CSC

That's a horrible example.

On second thought, you're right -- this is a horrible example, because it involves them actually being on the road.

[PeteMugg]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

On second thought, you're right -- this is a horrible example, because it involves them actually being on the road.

Odd timing, but note that Zenyatta has raced outside of Cali as often as Personal Ensign raced outside of New York. I'm not knocking PE, her competition or her accomplishments, but when you're the champ they have to come and get you.

This time Z came to the middle of the country to race on the dirt with fair notice to all. What's a gal gotta do?

[DaTruth]

Why is it that z barely beats the slugs but Rachel demolishes them. For example, see her 20 length win in the Oaks, her 19 length win in the Mother Goose, and her eight-length wins in the Martha Washington and Fantasy.