Crist on the Farcical World Cup

[Thunder Gulch]

I agree with most of what Crist is saying. I don't care about the DWC nearly as much as the Breeders Cup, but it's a shame that the game's highest levels are often contests decided on who is comfortable running on a given surface instead of who is the fastest animal.

[pweizer]

I have great respect for Mr. Christ but I think he is way off base here. I am no fan of synthetic surfaces and if I had my way they would all be gone. But, I made good money on the world cup races without throwing darts at a board. Anyone reading Pat Cummings excellent work all week would have had to taken a hard look at the World Cup winner. Pat all week long wrote about how Gloria was a stand out in his works and on apprerance. Then factor in that he figured to be lone speed in the race and the fact that he has run well in this race before and it is hard to say he is impossible. The winner of the prior race ran third in the Breeder's Cup turf last November (in fact I used her that day) and has beaten the boys before in group races in Europe. Again, it hardly took a dart to land on her.

A $5 double on these two races returned $1557.

The 99-1 upset that came in the race prior was a turf race. I agree that one was tough to come up with but it wasn't a synthetic surface which produced that crazy result.

Again, I agree with the main argument that it would be better to go back to dirt and turf only. However, I think using the world cup results to make that case is a real reach.

Paul

[pweizer]

Not to mention that last year's World Cup was run on dirt and won by the monster named Well Armed by about the length of the stretch. As pathetic as the handicap division has been in the U.S. for the last few years, Well Armed would have never even entered the discussion for the best older horse in this country. Yet he travels to Dubai and blows away a good international field on dirt.

Hard to say the surface caused the result.

Paul

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by pweizer

I have great respect for Mr. Christ but I think he is way off base here. I am no fan of synthetic surfaces and if I had my way they would all be gone. But, I made good money on the world cup races without throwing darts at a board. Anyone reading Pat Cummings excellent work all week would have had to taken a hard look at the World Cup winner. Pat all week long wrote about how Gloria was a stand out in his works and on apprerance. Then factor in that he figured to be lone speed in the race and the fact that he has run well in this race before and it is hard to say he is impossible. The winner of the prior race ran third in the Breeder's Cup turf last November (in fact I used her that day) and has beaten the boys before in group races in Europe. Again, it hardly took a dart to land on her.

A $5 double on these two races returned $1557.

The 99-1 upset that came in the race prior was a turf race. I agree that one was tough to come up with but it wasn't a synthetic surface which produced that crazy result.

Again, I agree with the main argument that it would be better to go back to dirt and turf only. However, I think using the world cup results to make that case is a real reach.

Paul

I don't think you really read what he wrote too carefully Paul. You say how you agree with Crist, but really just seemed to go out of your way to tout the Dar Re Mi-Gloria De Campeao double you hit. Coming up with Gloria de Campeao wasn't the point. Certainly the venerable 7yo is a trouper and had already established his form and viability on the surface, as had Allybar, earlier during the circus. Would you be here crowing about the savvy that tabbed the winner if the completely ordinary Lizard's Desire had won the photo?

The point Crist makes was that the synthetics as usual produced an undefined, jumble finish that any of three utter mediocrities could have decisioned. For $10,000,000, you'd think we would want to see a real race that produces a truly worthy horse as an International star. Like it did at Nad al Sheba.

(And as to your coda about Well Armed, Crist addresses that point acknowledging you get your Giacomos and Mine That Birds. Again, I don't get the impression based on your response that you went to CristBlog and read what he wrote...)

[pweizer]

I did read the article. I just don't see how yesterday's result was any crazier than last year's was. Thus, to me, this same article could have been written about any race where long shots came in.

My main point was that the race Crist used was a poor example of why synthetics are bad for racing.

Paul

[blackthroatedwind]

His first name isn't Jesus.

[ninetoone]

If the article had been written after 10 straight years of chaotic results, I would agree with him...but the sample isn't large enough. Who's to say that the favorites won't win the next couple of years....the sport in general produces chaotic results, as Crist says himself in the article.

[MisterB]

So when you have a 4 horse photo in Saratoga on the turf, winner to 4th seperated by about 3 inches, this a bad race too?

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by MisterB

So when you have a 4 horse photo in Saratoga on the turf, winner to 4th seperated by about 3 inches, this a bad race too?

I don't think I can respond to this or your earlier comment about training on Tapeta without it coming off as insulting. I'll simply say, if you have turf racing, what do you need psuedo-turf for exactly? Crist's point is that there's no point to synthetic racing. And certainly not for $10,000,000 to get a bunch of 5-7yo ne'er do wells finishing a half length apart.

[tector]

Originally Posted by MisterB

So when you have a 4 horse photo in Saratoga on the turf, winner to 4th seperated by about 3 inches, this a bad race too?

More often than not, yes, if you are talking about the speed of the race. For drama, it is just fine.

[NTamm1215]

I guess I just don't agree with the thought that because this particular result was somewhat inscrutable should make us say, "oh gosh, look what Sheikh Mo did, he ruined the World Cup."

This World Cup had no star appeal. At all. Gitano Hernando is far from an international superstar, so too Gio Ponti, Richard's Kid, and most others from the field. If in coming years we have a number of classic American handicap horses go there and fail then we can re-visit this discussion and say that the altered surface has changed what was once a place for greatness to be exemplified. Sure, Cigar, Silver Charm, Dubai Millennium, even horses like Roses in May and Pleasantly Perfect in their day, Invasor, and Curlin went to Dubai to take the ultimate international test.

It's understandable that Sheikh Mohammed saw an opportunity to turn his prized event into something that would be truly international. Did he do it at the expense of hurting American involvement in the race? Absolutely. Would it have been a more interesting race at Nad Al Sheba if Quality Road showed up? Probably, but the rest of the world would beg to differ.

NT

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by pweizer

I have great respect for Mr. Christ but I think he is way off base here.

Jesus H. to you and me.

I am no fan of synthetic surfaces and if I had my way they would all be gone. But, I made good money on the world cup races without throwing darts at a board.

My betting strategy of zero brain power also yielded a profit. Come on man, betting has nothing to do with this. Thoses synthetic races are eyesores to watch.

[johnny pinwheel]

Originally Posted by pweizer

I have great respect for Mr. Christ but I think he is way off base here. I am no fan of synthetic surfaces and if I had my way they would all be gone. But, I made good money on the world cup races without throwing darts at a board. Anyone reading Pat Cummings excellent work all week would have had to taken a hard look at the World Cup winner. Pat all week long wrote about how Gloria was a stand out in his works and on apprerance. Then factor in that he figured to be lone speed in the race and the fact that he has run well in this race before and it is hard to say he is impossible. The winner of the prior race ran third in the Breeder's Cup turf last November (in fact I used her that day) and has beaten the boys before in group races in Europe. Again, it hardly took a dart to land on her.

A $5 double on these two races returned $1557.

The 99-1 upset that came in the race prior was a turf race. I agree that one was tough to come up with but it wasn't a synthetic surface which produced that crazy result.

Again, I agree with the main argument that it would be better to go back to dirt and turf only. However, I think using the world cup results to make that case is a real reach.

Paul

dar re mi the winner of the turf classic was a definite overlay and not that hard to get. it was a turf race though. the next race was for 10 mil and the favorite was coming out of a 61k race. the second choice was a turf horse and the winner was a bum(really thats sour grapes). i had two doubles going but could not come up with the winner. one of mine was red desire who had just beat all of the top three at the distance and track last out. for 10 mil they should be attracting horses like vodka, quality road and zenyatta. instead its a pack of pigs. the synthetic is not to blame but it sure does not help. they could of kept the purses the same because that amount of money for horses like this is the farcicle part of this equation. the breeders cup does not shell out this kind of money and the quality is tons better. it used to be the oppisite way around. i think the sheiks crapped on their own parade.

[pweizer]

Originally Posted by johnny pinwheel

dar re mi the winner of the turf classic was a definite overlay and not that hard to get. it was a turf race though. the next race was for 10 mil and the favorite was coming out of a 61k race. the second choice was a turf horse and the winner was a bum. i had two doubles going but could not come up with the winner. one of mine was red desire who had just beat all of the top three at the distance and track last out. for 10 mil they should be attracting horses like vodka, quality road and zenyatta. instead its a pack of pigs. the synthetic is not to blame but it sure does not help. they could of kept the purses the same because that amount of money for horses like this is the farcicle part of this equation. the breeders cup does not shell out this kind of money and the quality is tons better. it used to be the oppisite way around. i think the sheiks crapped on their own parade.

We certainly can't make the argument that Zenyatta skipped the race because of the surface. Quality Road also went to Santa Anita for the Breeder's Cup on synthetic (although refused to load). From an American perspective, as Steve pointed out earlier, the timing is tough to get our best horses. This is true at least if they want to have a full campaign. How many of our great horses went over there, won the big race, and were never the same? It is a tough trip.

Paul

[blackthroatedwind]

If it was a dirt race it's hard to believe Quality Road wouldn't have been there. All they would have sacrificed was the Met Mile....and as glad as I am that he's running at Belmont.....I think they would have made that swap.

[Linny]

No matter the outcome, from top to bottom the DWC had a better lineup this year than last and apart from Curlin a better lineup than 2 years ago. I follow international racing closely and apart from the US horses there were 7 G1 winners. Gloria has run in the Carnival the last 3 or 4 years and won one of the local preps for this race. He won the G1 Singapore Cup last year. Alybar has clearly moved up his game since going to Tapeta, but then again Cigar wasn't "Cigar" until he got to dirt. Red Desire was a G1 winner in Japan who was third to their 2x HOY in the $5.4m Japan Cup last fall and had woon a Tapeta prep locally.
The fact that the US horses didn't get the big money is no excuse for trashing the race. Who the heck did Curlin beat when we were gloating about the best horse in the world?

As for the timing, to the Aussies, it's late summer, so it's like the end of the Saratoga or Del Mar meetings yet they still show up. In Hong Kong and Japan and Singapore, they are on northern time and their seasons are just picking up.

As for the horses involved being oldsters of little value, Gloria is 6 in his native Brazil. Allybar is 4 and Lizard's Desire is 4 in his native South Africa. Maybe if the US based trainers could figure out how to keep a horse around that long, some of them might develop a following, like HK's Good Baba who won the HK Mile for the 3rd time last fall at age 7. He's 16 for 39 and he's a KY bred. Many of those trainers with long lasting horses train on synthetics.

I love the irony of people complaining about the DWC siphoning off too many good American horses then complaining that running it on Tapeta makes it phony. You should be happy, maybe no Americans will bother. If you don't follow or care about interational racing, then why even look at or read about the DWC races?

Originally Posted by Linny

I love the irony of people complaining about the DWC siphoning off too many good American horses then complaining that running it on Tapeta makes it phony. You should be happy, maybe no Americans will bother. If you don't follow or care about interational racing, then why even look at or read about the DWC races?

Yes why be inquisitive. Shame on you people!! Now excuse me...I gotta go put this drool hanging from my mouth in the sink.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Linny

No matter the outcome, from top to bottom the DWC had a better lineup this year than last and apart from Curlin a better lineup than 2 years ago. I follow international racing closely and apart from the US horses there were 7 G1 winners. Gloria has run in the Carnival the last 3 or 4 years and won one of the local preps for this race. He won the G1 Singapore Cup last year. Alybar has clearly moved up his game since going to Tapeta, but then again Cigar wasn't "Cigar" until he got to dirt. Red Desire was a G1 winner in Japan who was third to their 2x HOY in the $5.4m Japan Cup last fall and had woon a Tapeta prep locally.
The fact that the US horses didn't get the big money is no excuse for trashing the race. Who the heck did Curlin beat when we were gloating about the best horse in the world?

As for the timing, to the Aussies, it's late summer, so it's like the end of the Saratoga or Del Mar meetings yet they still show up. In Hong Kong and Japan and Singapore, they are on northern time and their seasons are just picking up.

As for the horses involved being oldsters of little value, Gloria is 6 in his native Brazil. Allybar is 4 and Lizard's Desire is 4 in his native South Africa. Maybe if the US based trainers could figure out how to keep a horse around that long, some of them might develop a following, like HK's Good Baba who won the HK Mile for the 3rd time last fall at age 7. He's 16 for 39 and he's a KY bred. Many of those trainers with long lasting horses train on synthetics.

I love the irony of people complaining about the DWC siphoning off too many good American horses then complaining that running it on Tapeta makes it phony. You should be happy, maybe no Americans will bother. If you don't follow or care about interational racing, then why even look at or read about the DWC races?

Linny would the 6mil dollar winner be favorite in a overstakes this summer at 1 3/16ths at Monmouth Park? Get a grip these horses are basically 100k claimers MAYBE

[Lovely Laurel]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Linny would the 6mil dollar winner be favorite in a overstakes this summer at 1 3/16ths at Monmouth Park? Get a grip these horses are basically 100k claimers MAYBE

After digesting this thread for a day, there are several conclusions:

The group of horses in the DWC were not the best, but certainly not shabby.

There are many bettors with sour grapes. Especially those who publicly post their plays. Not saying my plays were any better. I didn't win.

Huge payouts in large races are not so unusual. '99, '02, '05, '09 Derby. Countless BC races.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Lovely Laurel

After digesting this thread for a day, there are several conclusions:

The group of horses in the DWC were not the best, but certainly not shabby.

There are many bettors with sour grapes. Especially those who publicly post their plays. Not saying my plays were any better. I didn't win.

Huge payouts in large races are not so unusual. '99, '02, '05, '09 Derby. Countless BC races.

Well if any of the Godolphin private purchased hadn't been Black Holed it could have been a luck better!