5 GOP break with party on jobs bill, vote w/Dems

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Danzig

your own chart belies that.

i looked over the title, and it wasn't very clear on whether they only showed motions that were filibustered, so thanks for clearing that up.

How in the world can you look at that chart, which is a numeric count of the actual number, and say it belies that the number of fillibusters and cloture votes have never been worse - more numerous - than right now?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Riot

How in the world can you look at that chart, which is a numeric count of the actual number, and say it belies that the number of fillibusters and cloture votes have never been worse - more numerous - than right now?

and so has the number of motions. you can't just look at the total and say 'it's worse'. it's higher, but it's not worse-look at the previous graph. over half of motions were filibustered, while this last congress has had less than half of the total motions filibustered. so how can less than half be worse than more than half? it can't. the totals of both are higher than the previous, but the percentage of motions that were stalled is LOWER. how is that worse? but i like how suddenly you're throwing in 'more numerous'. i said a few posts above that it's indisputable that all three numbers are higher. nice touch.
you said it's the worst it's ever been, and that simply isn't true. of course if the number of motions increases, and it's been a huge increase, then the other number will rise in response. you're using that as a way to say it's the worst yet, but i'm saying having less than half of the measures stalled vs having more than half stalled in the past doesn't show that it's the 'worst ever' now.


and on another note. the amount of filibustering has increased suddenly since 2000, with one drop in '04, and then a rise again every congress since. does that sudden rise coincide with the new rules? formerly, it took 2/3's to vote cloture. now, it's 3/5's. so, it's somewhat easier to vote cloture-so do the parties choose to filibuster more often as a way of saying ' see, we're fighting against____' when in fact, it's only a procedural move that most likely doesn't stop most worthwhile legislation?

[Riot]

look at the previous graph. over half of motions were filibustered, while this last congress has had less than half of the total motions filibustered.

Can you tell me what you think the three colored lines on the graph indicate?

but i like how suddenly you're throwing in 'more numerous'.

I'm not "suddenly throwing in more numerous". In the first post where I linked to this very graph, I said, "You say that's bull? Nonsense. It's not bull, look at the numbers for cloture votes - this last session has been the worse, ever. There's no disputing that.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Riot

Can you tell me what you think the three colored lines on the graph indicate?



I'm not "suddenly throwing in more numerous". In the first post where I linked to this very graph, I said, "You say that's bull? Nonsense. It's not bull, look at the numbers for cloture votes - this last session has been the worse, ever. There's no disputing that.

lol
those dizzy heads sure bolster your argument. i came home and asked my soon (hopefully) to be headed to the naval academy 18 year old son to ref this debate-he said you're wrong, that you're only looking at the total numbers-admittedly higher, but not 'worse'. but you're exactly right, they are certainly more numerous.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Danzig

lol
those dizzy heads sure bolster your argument. i came home and asked my soon (hopefully) to be headed to the naval academy 18 year old son to ref this debate-he said you're wrong, that you're only looking at the total numbers-admittedly higher, but not 'worse'. but you're exactly right, they are certainly more numerous.

'Zig - you are mistaking the gold line for all motions being brought before the body to be voted upon, aren't you? That's not what that is.

Here is another chart:

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Riot

'Zig - you are mistaking the gold line for all motions being brought to be voted upon, aren't you? That's not what that is.

Here is another chart:

no, you said those were the filibusters. i can read. but i can also do math. it makes perfect sense that if there are a lot more motions, that the minority party will respond in kind. but you are only considering the number of filibusters being the highest ever, without looking at the red line, which is the highest ever as well. but, in other instances you look at the red and yellow lines, and can see the difference in motions vs filibusters. so, again, the last lines do not indicate it's the 'worst ever'. like i said, blocking more than half of motions would be worse than blocking less than half, right? regardless of total numbers, that would be worse-wouldn't it?

[Riot]

i can read. but i can also do math. it makes perfect sense that if there are a lot more motions, that the minority party will respond in kind.

Those are not "motions to vote on stuff", those are cloture motions (against filibuster).

Neither chart indicates the number of motions brought to the floor, which is what you are assuming and basing your percentages upon.

(and the charts are not duplicates)

I give up

[Riot]

but, in other instances you look at the red and yellow lines, and can see the difference in motions vs filibusters.

The second chart: The red and yellow lines are NOT "motions vs filibusters". The red line is votes on cloture, and the yellow line is where that vote prevailed, and cloture was invoked. The blue line is not the entire number of motions about everything brought to the floor to be voted upon, it is the number of times a cloture motion was filed to (nearly always) end a fillibuster.

There is nothing at all in the second chart that tells one how many motions (to vote on this and that) were brought to the floor.

Now I give up for sure <g>

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

Originally Posted by Riot

'Zig - you are mistaking the gold line for all motions being brought before the body to be voted upon, aren't you? That's not what that is.

Here is another chart:

are these the f.a.t. charts..