Thoughts On NBA at midseason

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

You do realize that the player you pass it to needs to score in order to get an assist right? That a shot attempted is counted regardless of whether it goes in or not right? So your versus comparison is not really accurate in the way that you portray it?

Derrick Rose has played 1844 minutes this season. He has taken 22 three point shots. So he takes a three point shot every 84 minutes. Quite relevant these numbers you are using as "facts" when we are having a theoretical discussion.

You want to breakdown things that can't be broken down. Basketball isnt baseball, the absolutes are far greater in baseball. While you are somewhat effected by the park you play in and helped or hurt slightly by the calibur of hitters in front and behind you you basically are on your own at the plate. Same with a pitcher who is effected by the park and the defense behind him. But in the end guys who can hit do about what they are able to do. Same with pitchers. But in basketball you are far more effected statistically by the system your team runs and the players strength and weaknesses around you. I hate to keep bringing up Channng Frye but his example is easily understood. He didnt learn to shoot three point shots over the summer. He has just been allowed (encouraged?) to shoot them this year because the system of offense and team he plays for allows it. There was no stats that could have predicted him going from a guy who shot 20 for 70 for his entire 4 year career to a guy who has shot 120-277 in 53 games this year. If I had said that I thought Channing Frye was going to have a breakout year as a three point shooter this year you would have called me an idiot and said that no way he goes from taking 30 all year to shooting 5 a game. While admittedly there was little chance of me coming up with that hypothesis, there is a 100% chance that I would have got called an idiot and you would have dragged out the stats to "prove" it. The idea that the team I proposed (which can't really happen I found out tonight because of salary cap rules even if they were able to trade Thomas and Hinrich) could mesh and Deng and Rose would sacrifice a few shots when playing with other offensive stars is far less of a stretch than Frye becoming a prolific three point shooter.

There is no doubt that system plays a piece in a player's performance. After watching the D'antoni system the last few years, I wouldn't be surprised if anyone short of shaq became a decent three baller especially the way Nash runs it. Frye always showed range although not 3 pt range. I dont think its so much of a stretch at all. He was always a soft perimeter player anyway with no low post game to speak of.

I will say that Rose becoming a decent three point shooter would shock me a whole lot more than Frye becoming one has. Rose becoming a great passer doesnt surprise me because he is already a great passer. He has incredible vision. I never said he didnt. Its just not his game. He isnt a spot up guy and he wants the ball. Wade isnt a spot up guy and wants the ball. Neither of them have range to open up the middle to drive or free up the low post. Thats the point.

I get your point. We simply disagree. Can we move on?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

I will say that Rose becoming a decent three point shooter would shock me a whole lot more than Frye becoming one has. Rose becoming a great passer doesnt surprise me because he is already a great passer. He has incredible vision. I never said he didnt. Its just not his game. He isnt a spot up guy and he wants the ball. Wade isnt a spot up guy and wants the ball. Neither of them have range to open up the middle to drive or free up the low post. Thats the point.

I get your point. We simply disagree. Can we move on?

You are labeling a 21 year old guy based on a year playing with Roll the balls out Calipari and a year and a half of Vinny ball? Now he can pass but he doesn't have it in him to do it? And the topper Dwayne Wade doesnt have the range to open up the middle or free up the low post? Is that the same Dwayne Wade i see play? The guy who has a deadly 18 foot jumper in the foul line extended area? Really?

You want to "win" and unwinnable argument. The original point i made was that Chicago had a much better supporting cast than New York did and potentially more cap money if they could pull off a couple of farily logical trades. I never guaranteed a championship, I never said it was likely to happen. But I felt that it would be an interesting and dangerous team. Obviously I felt that Rose has greater potential to be more than a scoring point guard and would no doubt adjust his game to having one of the NBA's best players along side him in the backcourt. You feel differently. I felt that Bosh would mesh nicely playing alongside a strong rebounder and good defender like Noah and that Deng would do an adequate job as a long three man who would benefit from the defensive focus being elsewhere. I felt that Gibson has a lot of potential off the bench and that Salmons would give them a scorer with range who could give points off the bench. All of these assumptions are hardly wild. The biggest issue with that team (of course there are only 7 guys and Johnson is under contract so other pieces would have to be added) is defending a strong 2 guard as Deng isnt quick enough and you dont want Wade to chase a guy all over the court. That and Salmons potential to pout.

You want to tell me that I am an idiot because they currently shoot 68 times a game. Ok, nice discussion.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

You are labeling a 21 year old guy based on a year playing with Roll the balls out Calipari and a year and a half of Vinny ball? Now he can pass but he doesn't have it in him to do it? And the topper Dwayne Wade doesnt have the range to open up the middle or free up the low post? Is that the same Dwayne Wade i see play? The guy who has a deadly 18 foot jumper in the foul line extended area? Really?

You want to "win" and unwinnable argument. The original point i made was that Chicago had a much better supporting cast than New York did and potentially more cap money if they could pull off a couple of farily logical trades. I never guaranteed a championship, I never said it was likely to happen. But I felt that it would be an interesting and dangerous team. Obviously I felt that Rose has greater potential to be more than a scoring point guard and would no doubt adjust his game to having one of the NBA's best players along side him in the backcourt. You feel differently. I felt that Bosh would mesh nicely playing alongside a strong rebounder and good defender like Noah and that Deng would do an adequate job as a long three man who would benefit from the defensive focus being elsewhere. I felt that Gibson has a lot of potential off the bench and that Salmons would give them a scorer with range who could give points off the bench. All of these assumptions are hardly wild. The biggest issue with that team (of course there are only 7 guys and Johnson is under contract so other pieces would have to be added) is defending a strong 2 guard as Deng isnt quick enough and you dont want Wade to chase a guy all over the court. That and Salmons potential to pout.

You want to tell me that I am an idiot because they currently shoot 68 times a game. Ok, nice discussion.

For the record, you started the "idiot" stuff first but i forgive you.

An interesting and dangerous team? You don't throw those guys together to be "interesting and dangerous". You throw them together to win a title. I don't think that team wins a title of any kind but ive already stated my issues why. I actually don't think defense would be an issue. they might get pushed around some in the paint but that is a long, athletic team. I think defense is where the most adjustments can be made especially if guys buy in. Wade is a tremendous defensive player if not a lock down. Rose can be anything he wants to be. Deng is long and athletic as are Noah and Bosh. That team would certainly lead the league in blocked shots.

Slashers have to be paired with spot up shooters to open up the lanes. Potential spacing issues are so often forgotten when putting together a team. People always mix up chemistry for whether or not guys like each other. Its whether they can occupy the same parts of the floor, whether they need the ball to be effective, whether they can spot up.

Be nice and you can have the last word.