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  #1  
Old 12-23-2009, 10:31 AM
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cmorioles cmorioles is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kasept
The Host/Guest simulcast revenue model. It is as much a source of the game's ills as anything. It's repair would go a long way to righting the wrongs.
It isn't that easy in my opinion. Right now, most of the handle is coming from people betting with a rebate. If you "repair" that model so the host track gets more, all you are going to do is cut the rebates of the biggest bettors.

The biggest hurdle to the game is declining handle. Now, there are a myriad of reasons for this. The economy is a convenient excuse, but far from the only one. There are too many races being run at too many tracks. Fields suck, so people don't bet as much. The takeout is certainly a factor. Even those that say they don't care about takeout can figure out they are going broke quicker. Signal wars don't help either. How many accounts do you need to bet all the North American tracks today? Three, four, five? It might be more next month.

Until the handle is addressed, fighting over the current shrinking pie is short sighted and a colossal waste of time.
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Old 12-23-2009, 10:36 AM
Gander Gander is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmorioles
It isn't that easy in my opinion. Right now, most of the handle is coming from people betting with a rebate. If you "repair" that model so the host track gets more, all you are going to do is cut the rebates of the biggest bettors.

The biggest hurdle to the game is declining handle. Now, there are a myriad of reasons for this. The economy is a convenient excuse, but far from the only one. There are too many races being run at too many tracks. Fields suck, so people don't bet as much. The takeout is certainly a factor. Even those that say they don't care about takeout can figure out they are going broke quicker. Signal wars don't help either. How many accounts do you need to bet all the North American tracks today? Three, four, five? It might be more next month.

Until the handle is addressed, fighting over the current shrinking pie is short sighted and a colossal waste of time.
I agree. Gamblers will always find money to bet. Much in the same way drug addicts and alcoholics do the same. Recession or no recession...Vices are always "recession proof", if you will.
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  #3  
Old 12-23-2009, 10:48 AM
MISTERGEE MISTERGEE is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gander
I agree. Gamblers will always find money to bet. Much in the same way drug addicts and alcoholics do the same. Recession or no recession...Vices are always "recession proof", if you will.
Dont know about that--"discretionary income" is way down for many
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Old 12-23-2009, 10:45 AM
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Kasept Kasept is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmorioles
It isn't that easy in my opinion. Right now, most of the handle is coming from people betting with a rebate. If you "repair" that model so the host track gets more, all you are going to do is cut the rebates of the biggest bettors.

The biggest hurdle to the game is declining handle. Now, there are a myriad of reasons for this. The economy is a convenient excuse, but far from the only one. There are too many races being run at too many tracks. Fields suck, so people don't bet as much. The takeout is certainly a factor. Even those that say they don't care about takeout can figure out they are going broke quicker. Signal wars don't help either. How many accounts do you need to bet all the North American tracks today? Three, four, five? It might be more next month.

Until the handle is addressed, fighting over the current shrinking pie is short sighted and a colossal waste of time.
Think we're on the same page on this generally. 'Declining handle' is a broad-based issue that cuts through a wide array of the more mundane to intricate issues.. Agree wholeheartedly about too many races at too many tracks. The boutique meet philosophy continues to stand as the example to be emulated: Less racing of full fields for better purses = solid handle. From what I read and hear, adjusting the revenue split reasonably does not have to take away from rebates. And if the top level bricks and mortar operators had an appropriate 'modern era' revenue stream from the simo model, they could more easily approach state governments with plans for takeout reductions.

There is no simplistic 'fix-all' here is the message I think... There are so many inter-related issues that depend on almost a domino effect. That's why in the "Our Industry" segments I'm doing with Satish Sanan, we keep coming back to his 4 point program that tries to address things comprehensively AND specifically:

1. Overall Industry structure and governance
2. Re-sizing game and repairing the revenue model
3. Integrity (Medication; Safety; Tote; Sales)
4. Horseplayer/Customer-centric Marketing/Service
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  #5  
Old 12-23-2009, 10:50 AM
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Lack of one overall industry organization = Fractured fifdoms with no national coordination of major issues: drugs-perception, wagering, calendar-scheduling-excess racing/disposable horses
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  #6  
Old 12-25-2009, 11:35 PM
chucklestheclown chucklestheclown is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot
Lack of one overall industry organization = Fractured fifdoms with no national coordination of major issues: drugs-perception, wagering, calendar-scheduling-excess racing/disposable horses
Ditto.
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  #7  
Old 12-23-2009, 10:50 AM
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jms62 jms62 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kasept
Think we're on the same page on this generally. 'Declining handle' is a broad-based issue that cuts through a wide array of the more mundane to intricate issues.. Agree wholeheartedly about too many races at too many tracks. The boutique meet philosophy continues to stand as the example to be emulated: Less racing of full fields for better purses = solid handle. From what I read and hear, adjusting the revenue split reasonably does not have to take away from rebates. And if the top level bricks and mortar operators had an appropriate 'modern era' revenue stream from the simo model, they could more easily approach state governments with plans for takeout reductions.

There is no simplistic 'fix-all' here is the message I think... There are so many inter-related issues that depend on almost a domino effect. That's why in the "Out Industry" segments I'm doing with Satish Sanan, we keep coming back to his 4 point program that tries to address things comprehensively AND specifically:

1. Overall Industry structure and governance
2. Re-sizing game and repairing the revenue model
3. Integrity (Medication; Safety; Tote; Sales)
4. Horseplayer/Customer-centric Marketing/Service
Steve is there anywhere that we can go to see the specifics of how Satish feels the 4 points can be addressed.
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  #8  
Old 12-23-2009, 10:56 AM
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philcski philcski is offline
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#1 Takeout too high
#2 Taxes on windfalls causes jackpot-style wagers to be no longer attractive
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  #9  
Old 12-23-2009, 11:19 AM
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Indian Charlie Indian Charlie is offline
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#1 Idiots in charge of tracks, BC, etc making one bad decision after another, for years now.

It's like they are hell bent on destroying the industry.
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  #10  
Old 12-23-2009, 11:32 AM
MISTERGEE MISTERGEE is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indian Charlie
#1 Idiots in charge of tracks, BC, etc making one bad decision after another, for years now.

It's like they are hell bent on destroying the industry.
yes Ive seen hot dog carts have much better management than Calder or Gulfstream down here in Fla for example
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  #11  
Old 12-23-2009, 11:41 AM
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Indian Charlie Indian Charlie is offline
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Originally Posted by MISTERGEE
yes Ive seen hot dog carts have much better management than Calder or Gulfstream down here in Fla for example

Also look at how the BC has been handled the last few years. They are trying to appeal to a select few rich and famous celebs and they have no regard for the typical fan. Their decisions really make no sense at all.

The CHRB decision to mandate synthetics? Don't get me started.

CD management just a year or so ago saying they don't want to host the BC, due to some made up nonsense? Now they want it?

The constant bickering with signal feeds?

Stronachs dismantling of GP?

It's really like they are all in a race with each other to see who can destroy themselves the quickest.

Maybe the Breeders Cup has some sort of secret race. It's restricted to racing management types and the first ones to destroy themselves are the winners. Purse, $100 mil.

Though, come to think of it, racings approach to running their businesses is pretty consistent with the normal way of doing things lately across the board in big companies these days.
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Old 12-23-2009, 12:40 PM
johnny pinwheel johnny pinwheel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indian Charlie
#1 Idiots in charge of tracks, BC, etc making one bad decision after another, for years now.

It's like they are hell bent on destroying the industry.
i agree with the indian and some of the other posts which point out the crummy decisions. Poly in Cali where its hot, there is no "weather"...stupid,stupid,stupid. poly at keenland, those are what i call lost causes right there. i rarely bet that crap! the horses have to "avoid" each other because of specialized tracks. whose going to send a horse to run in a big race on poly when you know you have no shot? after two years of breeders cups there(which is another joke of a decision) the connections for dirt horses know its a farce. charging for parking, admission and all the other crap when casinos are giving things away and you walk in the joint free! turning gulfstream park into some kind of racino/mall.....brilliant. i could go on and on and on and on.........
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  #13  
Old 09-18-2010, 05:41 AM
chucklestheclown chucklestheclown is offline
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“Horses actually are tested for more drugs at a lower level than in any other sport,” Arthur said.

When horsemen are notified of altered testing regimens, they tend to alter their use of drugs. Anabolic steroids weren’t illegal in the U.S. until a couple of years ago, but once racing decided to ban their presence on race day, horsemen almost universally complied. Dr. Adam Negrusz, the director of the Illinois laboratory, said his lab had found just four anabolic steroid overages in the course of its testing.

There does exist the belief that committed cheaters will stay one step ahead of lab chemists. Really, only a blunderer would try to cheat with a medication on the ARCI Class 1 list. There clearly is a better chance of getting away with using a medication that is not well known, though the best testing equipment is supposed to detect anything unusual, identifiable or not.

“I guess I scratch my head at why six or seven guys can be 75 percent win off the claim,” New York trainer John Kimmel said. “That’s a hard thing to figure out. There are some medications we seem to be ignorant about that are obviously getting through.”

In this regard, Kimmel praised the new trend toward unannounced, out-of-competition testing at private farms or sometime in the middle of a training cycle when a race isn’t at hand. Out-of-competition testing has gained popularity in the U.S., with Kentucky recently approving the practice, and it is already widely employed in England, according to Dr. Tim Morris, director of equine science and welfare for the British Horseracing Authority. Morris said England has moved away from the blind screening of one winner and one randomly selected horse from a given race – the way things are usually done in this country – and toward intelligence-led target testing.

“We’ve moved away from post-race testing,” Morris said. “Still the majority is post-race, but we have much wider criteria: Betting patterns, performance on the day, stewards watching the race, vets with information. It’s no longer the only way, no longer formulaic. We also do pre-race testing and out-of-competition testing, and all that is driven by intelligence. We use the structures that law enforcement uses to gather information. We rely on patterns building up. It’s good use of racing’s resources, but it’s also more effective.”

England has one centralized laboratory where all testing is performed. So does Canada. In the United States, however, testing is done at many laboratories, some with different types of equipment, making uniform testing procedures impossible. Moreover, guidance on withdrawal times for therapeutic medications in the U.S. is a hodgepodge: A single drug, such as the common tranquilizer acepromazine, has a bevy of recommended withdrawal times listed, depending on the state in which a horse is racing. In Canada, it’s one lab and one national book of therapeutic medications with recommended withdrawal times.


“It’s a universal desire to have a national regulatory scheme so there aren’t different rules in different jurisdictions,” said Dr. Scollay. “It’s tough on horsemen, horses, vets, and presents concerns for the wagering public. Every aspect of the industry is working toward that.”
One aspect in particular is engaged in heavy lifting – the Racing Medication and Testing Consortium. The RMTC had its genesis about 10 years ago. A board of directors comprising 25 racing-industry stakeholders governs the organization, based in Lexington, Ky., and headed by Dr. Scot Waterman.
...


The RMTC is establishing threshold levels for commonly used therapeutic drugs. First, the group funds and administers scientific studies. After analysis, the RMTC can approve a threshold level, at which point a recommendation is passed onto the ARCI. If the ARCI also approves it, the threshold is sent out in the form of a model rule to the 37 states that follow ARCI guidelines. Note the term, “model rule.” Neither the ARCI nor any other national organization has the power to enforce drug standards: They can only establish guidelines and hope that the various state regulatory agencies follow them.

Global cooperation, however, could help reduce the future cost of doing the science that can strengthen medication policy.

“The neat thing for us is we’ve been able to make some nice connections with our European counterparts,” Waterman said. “It looks like we’re going to start sharing information.”

What might be more difficult to obtain is public support. Both the general public and a great number of racing fans continue to vociferously question the role of drugs – therapeutic or otherwise – in Thoroughbred racing.

“What in God’s name has happened to the sport of kings?” wrote a commenter on an article detailing the Canterbury drug positives on the Thoroughbred Times website. “It has turned to the sport of narcotics.”

The Internet is awash with such comments. And it is also true that racing is awash in therapeutic medications.

“There definitely is a culture of medication in this country,” Waterman said. “There’s no question about it. We lose on that comparison. That’s the way it is. This has been 30 years in the making.”

“Hay, oats, water? Where is hay, oats, and water?” Pletcher said. “Is it 24 hours out? Forty-eight hours out? Seventy-two hours out? Six months out? What is it? It’s foolish to think that horses are not going to have problems. We’re going to have to treat those in some way. Again – where’s the guideline? If hay, oats, and water means nothing can be given seven days out, then let everybody know that. Fourteen days out, whatever you want it to be. I don’t think it’s very practical. I think it’s in the horse’s best interest not to do that, but if they want to do it, everyone will adhere as long as they know where it is.”

Right now, few seem to know while many are being caught up in the chaos. And that is a situation for which there should be zero tolerance.
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Old 12-23-2009, 11:42 AM
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Stickhorse Stickhorse is offline
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We need to draw more fans to this great game.

The ITW that I attend in Cali has fewer patrons every year. Those in attendance average at least 55 years old.
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  #15  
Old 12-23-2009, 12:10 PM
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cmorioles cmorioles is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stickhorse
We need to draw more fans to this great game.

The ITW that I attend in Cali has fewer patrons every year. Those in attendance average at least 55 years old.
The game doesn't need fans. The game needs gamblers.
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  #16  
Old 12-23-2009, 12:23 PM
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the_fat_man the_fat_man is offline
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No doubt the game needs an influx of need blood. And, the best way to attract new players is to follow the model of POKER. Check out all the new players that POKER drew by providing special treatment for all their HIGH ROLLERS. I mean, in the World Series of Poker, for example, all HIGH ROLLERS get a 10% rebate on their stack. So, all the HIGH ROLLERS (including the BEST PLAYERS) aren't really winning on their own (for the most part).

Yeah.

What racing really needs to do is show all the gamblers out there looking for a new game that ALL PLAYERS are treated EVENLY. And, that having a NEGATIVE ROI means that you LOSE MONEY.

If they can't attract players to the game using this model, then maybe they need the game to be a bit SIMPLER. Keeping the game difficult for some while making it simpler for others is not exactly the way to go about making it an attractive proposition.

I bet a lot of money, so I need an unfair advantage. This might work when it comes to dealing with banks, for example, but, in situations where there's a choice, it's not happening.
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  #17  
Old 12-23-2009, 12:25 PM
Gander Gander is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmorioles
The game doesn't need fans. The game needs gamblers.
I dont think you have much to worry about. How is this game going to attract new fans when the few stars we do have run 4-5 race campaigns and take 7 months off between starts. From tomorrow's DRF....

Fabulous Strike is getting a break on a farm in Ocala, Fla., and will be pointed to a limited 7-year-old campaign in 2010 that his connections hope ends with a start in the Breeders' Cup Sprint at Churchill Downs in November.

A multiple stakes winner, Fabulous Strike has not raced since getting run down by Kodiak Kowboy in the Grade 1 Vosburgh in the slop at Belmont in early October.


A much deserved break after running all of what, 5 times in 2009?
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  #18  
Old 12-23-2009, 12:49 PM
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Kasept Kasept is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gander
I dont think you have much to worry about. How is this game going to attract new fans when the few stars we do have run 4-5 race campaigns and take 7 months off between starts. From tomorrow's DRF....

Fabulous Strike is getting a break on a farm in Ocala, Fla., and will be pointed to a limited 7-year-old campaign in 2010 that his connections hope ends with a start in the Breeders' Cup Sprint at Churchill Downs in November.

A multiple stakes winner, Fabulous Strike has not raced since getting run down by Kodiak Kowboy in the Grade 1 Vosburgh in the slop at Belmont in early October.


A much deserved break after running all of what, 5 times in 2009?
The 'sticking around' schtick makes for a nice argument, but it's a canard in this conversation. Stars may matter to 'fans', but they don't matter to gamblers. CJ has always been right on this subject, and was banging that drum before anyone. People who will make the difference at the windows contributing to handle in a meaningful way couldn't care less how long some high profile horse is around... (unless they are a money-burning favorite type of course).


Separately, why in the world would Fabulous Strike draw ire? All he does is show up every time out. Horses that run really fast are the most likely to get hurt and most likely to need time between starts. Todd Beattie has handled Fabulous Strike brilliantly, and his scheduling has ALLOWED him to make the starts he has and still have a horse going into his 7yo season.
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  #19  
Old 12-23-2009, 12:50 PM
freddymo freddymo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gander
I dont think you have much to worry about. How is this game going to attract new fans when the few stars we do have run 4-5 race campaigns and take 7 months off between starts. From tomorrow's DRF....

Fabulous Strike is getting a break on a farm in Ocala, Fla., and will be pointed to a limited 7-year-old campaign in 2010 that his connections hope ends with a start in the Breeders' Cup Sprint at Churchill Downs in November.

A multiple stakes winner, Fabulous Strike has not raced since getting run down by Kodiak Kowboy in the Grade 1 Vosburgh in the slop at Belmont in early October.


A much deserved break after running all of what, 5 times in 2009?
How many G1 horses campaign every 4 weeks?
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