Obama: Too much debt could fuel double-dip recession

[Bigsmc]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

It has? You really think that that was $800 billion dollars well spent? The economy is doing so well because of it? New and existing businesses are being created and expanding, putting people back to work? Where?

The company I work for has actually benefitted from stimulus money.

[joeydb]

Originally Posted by Bigsmc

The company I work for has actually benefitted from stimulus money.

OK, I don't doubt you, however, let me ask -- unless you did the accounting yourself, would you have a number on how much it benefitted, both in terms of increased profits and any "jobs saved"?

In the simplest case, let's say you owned the company. You were planning to lay off people, because you had to and the balance sheet was in the red. Then you get a shot in the arm from the government and no longer need to lay people off. That's obviously a legitimate case where you could say jobs were saved. You knew you had to lay people off, you knew how many, you're obviously not deceiving yourself -- that's all real.

Now, go to the more common case where you can't be sure of the validity of any information from the bookkeeping, management or legal arms of the company. Many would argue that the potential for deception is high, saying "Oh yeah, we had jobs saved as a result of the stimulus." That's where a lot of the skepticism comes from on this issue.

[GBBob]

Originally Posted by joeydb

OK, I don't doubt you, however, let me ask -- unless you did the accounting yourself, would you have a number on how much it benefitted, both in terms of increased profits and any "jobs saved"?

In the simplest case, let's say you owned the company. You were planning to lay off people, because you had to and the balance sheet was in the red. Then you get a shot in the arm from the government and no longer need to lay people off. That's obviously a legitimate case where you could say jobs were saved. You knew you had to lay people off, you knew how many, you're obviously not deceiving yourself -- that's all real.

Now, go to the more common case where you can't be sure of the validity of any information from the bookkeeping, management or legal arms of the company. Many would argue that the potential for deception is high, saying "Oh yeah, we had jobs saved as a result of the stimulus." That's where a lot of the skepticism comes from on this issue.

But Joey..be honest..you and most of the right wingers won't believe ANYTHING that a Dem or Liberal says. You don't believe in Global Warming, you don't believe that the Stimulus did anything good for anyone, etc. So why would you believe Bigs or anyone else who claims there was a benefit?

[joeydb]

Originally Posted by GBBob

But Joey..be honest..you and most of the right wingers won't believe ANYTHING that a Dem or Liberal says. You don't believe in Global Warming, you don't believe that the Stimulus did anything good for anyone, etc. So why would you believe Bigs or anyone else who claims there was a benefit?

Because the most offensive thing about all this "debt driving spending which is driving more debt" vicious cycle is that there is no math being performed or shown as to how much it actually helped. In other words, the economy itself, without a stimulus package, still has the ability to recover. Some say it would have recovered faster without the stimulus package because the debt load and resulting tax load on the citizens is less. Others say the stimulus helped in a way that the economy alone couldn't do. But nobody is breaking down exactly (or ballpark) how much recovery is from the economy itself versus the stimulus.

For credibility, the supporters of the stimulus and ANY NEW SPENDING must show that math, for all to see. And yes, the liberals who are now in charge are proposing most of the new spending, and cutting nothing from their previous programs. Defense they'd love to cut -- in fact that's the only place they CAN cut, politically. They've been for "less weapons more treaties" for decades. But sometimes the treaties don't work, and the weapons always do, which is why potential adversaries fear the weapons and less so the treaties.

Check this out: http://www.usdebtclock.org/

Both parties should be working to turn that into a national surplus clock.

Global Warming or Global Cooling or Climate change (which happens every season) is a separate issue for the most part, except that all of the global proposals expect America to pay the biggest share and curtail our growth (big surprise) while countries like China, who has trillions to loan to us despite being called a "developing" country, is expected to pay far less, if they feel like it, and if anyone has the guts to enforce that. How you enforce payment on a nuclear-armed country with over a billion people and who is the current leading creditor of the United States is anybody's guess.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by GBBob

But Joey..be honest..you and most of the right wingers won't believe ANYTHING that a Dem or Liberal says. You don't believe in Global Warming, you don't believe that the Stimulus did anything good for anyone, etc. So why would you believe Bigs or anyone else who claims there was a benefit?

Bob
I dont believe the stimilus is worth the money spent because of where the money went and how it was spent not because of who proposed it. If a liberal had come up with an extention of the Bush tax cuts or broader based small-business incentives then i would wholeheartedly get behind it. What was passed had virtually nothing for the jobs creators. And then we scratch our heads when unemployment continues to rise.

[wiphan]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Bob
I dont believe the stimilus is worth the money spent because of where the money went and how it was spent not because of who proposed it. If a liberal had come up with an extention of the Bush tax cuts or broader based small-business incentives then i would wholeheartedly get behind it. What was passed had virtually nothing for the jobs creators. And then we scratch our heads when unemployment continues to rise.

The only good program they came up with was the purchase of mortgage backed securities for the following reasons:
1) the government can actual recoup or make $ on this program as opposed to government spending
2) Most people that own a home could and have benefited from it.
3) I made $ on it

[Bigsmc]

Originally Posted by joeydb

OK, I don't doubt you, however, let me ask -- unless you did the accounting yourself, would you have a number on how much it benefitted, both in terms of increased profits and any "jobs saved"?

In the simplest case, let's say you owned the company. You were planning to lay off people, because you had to and the balance sheet was in the red. Then you get a shot in the arm from the government and no longer need to lay people off. That's obviously a legitimate case where you could say jobs were saved. You knew you had to lay people off, you knew how many, you're obviously not deceiving yourself -- that's all real.

Now, go to the more common case where you can't be sure of the validity of any information from the bookkeeping, management or legal arms of the company. Many would argue that the potential for deception is high, saying "Oh yeah, we had jobs saved as a result of the stimulus." That's where a lot of the skepticism comes from on this issue.

I don't have numbers, but I know we are much busier in the fourth quarter of this year and steadily hiring. The only thing that has changed from the first three quarters is that we have several stimulus funded (or stimulus assisted) projects.

Increased profits have nothing to do with the package, they have to do with our performance. Also, the bidding for these projects is ravenous so you have to anticipate that the margins will be slightly lower.

*regrets entering the politics/society room*

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Bigsmc

I don't have numbers, but I know we are much busier in the fourth quarter of this year and steadily hiring. The only thing that has changed from the first three quarters is that we have several stimulus funded (or stimulus assisted) projects.

Increased profits have nothing to do with the package, they have to do with our performance. Also, the bidding for these projects is ravenous so you have to anticipate that the margins will be slightly lower.

*regrets entering the politics/society room*

What industry, if I may ask?

[Danzig]

my accounts related in any way to timber, forestry and construction are way down. the weather here much of the year has had a detrimental effect on timber harvests, which in turn has increased the cost of timber. in a down market, it's better for plywood and osb mills to temporarily halt production then to pay inflated prices due to the impossibility of logging. this will last months as the woods are so wet, and we don't see a change in the flooding for months.

defense on the other hand is growing, i've got several accounts that are growing rapidly--too bad tho that overall we're down. our production accts are suffering, but hospitals and schools are up. but not enough of the latter to offset the former. and then there's the fact that recent tornadoes put a huge hit on one of the universities. it's been one hell of a year down here. any potential road construction projects have been delayed due to the weather, and farmers down here are losing hundreds of millions of dollars due to record rain.

[Bigsmc]

Originally Posted by Riot

What industry, if I may ask?

Construction, specifically bridges.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Bigsmc

Construction, specifically bridges.

Ah, yes, I see Scavs standing by one in your avatar ? .... (or yeah, it could be a CD barn ... )

Just wondering, as I know alot of the dollars have gone to trying to make infrastructure safer. '

Zig's take on what she's dealing with is interesting. My profession (vet med) survives on disposable income dollars, but there's quite a bit of hiring and new construction, expansion going on these past couple of months.

The infrastructure is a significant problem and I can't fault Obama pushing for proper funding.

The highways in Kentucky are pretty sorry. Used to have some of the best roads in the country.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Bigsmc

Construction, specifically bridges.

really.. My buddy was building bridges all over FL (just got laid off though.. so maybe not the same company!)

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Bigsmc

The company I work for has actually benefitted from stimulus money.

That's great. No one said that no business wouldnt benefit. But aas it led to greater employment or long term expansion? If so then feel fortunate, you guys hit the stimilus homerun.