Jerry Brown's letter to TDN on HOY discussion

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann

"Mr. Brown needs a history lesson.

Who needs a history lesson when we're talking about the present?

Are you telling me that the CCA Oaks, which has invariably drawn a 4-horse field in the last decade or so, is still the premiere race for 3yo fillies?

I think what is needed here is a NEWSFLASH...

[KY_Sasquash]

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann

"And oh yeah, winning this country's premiere race for three-year-old fillies by 20 lengths. Imagine if a colt won the Derby by 20. Imagine anyone winning a GI by 20. They make HBO movies about that kind of thing."

Mr. Brown needs a history lesson. The Kentucky Oaks is not our premier race for 3yo fillies and never has been. For decades, the real American Oaks (sponsored by the Coaching Club of America) has been run at a real classic distance, either 10f or 12f. And after the CCA Oaks, the Alabama has always had more prestige than the KY Oaks. You do realize that when grading was introduced, the Ky Oaks was only a G2? While the Monmouth Oaks and the Cotillion H at Liberty Bell were G1s? Just because it is run during Derby week doesn't mean that the Ky Oaks is a comparable race.

One could argue that the distance of her win at Churchill was assisted by the sloppy track; fields are always more spread out on off tracks.

I remember the rain that day, but it stopped early and the track was listed as "fast" when bullsbay won the Alysheba two races before the Oaks was run.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann

"And oh yeah, winning this country's premiere race for three-year-old fillies by 20 lengths. Imagine if a colt won the Derby by 20. Imagine anyone winning a GI by 20. They make HBO movies about that kind of thing."

Mr. Brown needs a history lesson. The Kentucky Oaks is not our premier race for 3yo fillies and never has been. For decades, the real American Oaks (sponsored by the Coaching Club of America) has been run at a real classic distance, either 10f or 12f. And after the CCA Oaks, the Alabama has always had more prestige than the KY Oaks. You do realize that when grading was introduced, the Ky Oaks was only a G2? While the Monmouth Oaks and the Cotillion H at Liberty Bell were G1s? Just because it is run during Derby week doesn't mean that the Ky Oaks is a comparable race.

One could argue that the distance of her win at Churchill was assisted by the sloppy track; fields are always more spread out on off tracks.

This ain't 1973. The Kentucky Oaks is the #1 race for 3 year old fillies, end of story. The CCA Oaks has a much better chance of getting cancelled in the next decade than returning to prominence. And it wasn't sloppy...

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann

"And oh yeah, winning this country's premiere race for three-year-old fillies by 20 lengths. Imagine if a colt won the Derby by 20. Imagine anyone winning a GI by 20. They make HBO movies about that kind of thing."

Mr. Brown needs a history lesson. The Kentucky Oaks is not our premier race for 3yo fillies and never has been. For decades, the real American Oaks (sponsored by the Coaching Club of America) has been run at a real classic distance, either 10f or 12f. And after the CCA Oaks, the Alabama has always had more prestige than the KY Oaks. You do realize that when grading was introduced, the Ky Oaks was only a G2? While the Monmouth Oaks and the Cotillion H at Liberty Bell were G1s? Just because it is run during Derby week doesn't mean that the Ky Oaks is a comparable race.

One could argue that the distance of her win at Churchill was assisted by the sloppy track; fields are always more spread out on off tracks.

this is really off the mark. regardless of what got graded when and how, you can't argue with the field that shows up for the ky oaks each year. it certainly seems more of a draw than the coaching club or alabama. history isn't something to ignore, but you can't ignore how things have changed in the modern era.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Handicappy

Ducked coming east? You don't know the Moss' well. They had all the reservations and plans in to come to the Beldame if Rachel was going to be there. She ran her best on the oaklawn dirt. If there was a legit opportunity to duck it would have been the classic with EVERYTHING on the line. Both horses are great and will go down in history. You can make a case for each one or for splitting the trophy. I prefer the latter in view of their incredible contributions to the sport.

The sad part of that convenient cover story is that Zenyatta could have won HOY by coming out for the Beldame with or without Rachel Alexandra.

Assuming she won, she would have defeated multiple Grade 1 winner Music Note on regular dirt, would have won one of the top races for older fillies in this country (which would have given her a grand total of 2 counting the Vanity--the other two being prep races), would have had a chance to validate her trainer's assertions that she's "better" on dirt, and would have been able to claim a "coast to coast" campaign.

Another interesting question, had she run against Rachel Alexandra during the season, would her connections have still run her in the Classic?

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

This is a little blurb from Oppenheim in the TDN (apologies for the strange print, it does that when you copy off a pdf) and I think he fails to realize that most of the people who watch the Breeder's Cup are existing fans of racing - whereas any Triple Crown race (Preakness) is watched by more people who we are trying to reach:

HORSE OF THE YEAR: Interesting comments, and
one thing they really highlight is the question: what are
the criteria for Horse of the Year? Those of us with
votes will be fascinated to refresh our memories when
the NTRA directive on the subject is issued to Eclipse
voters. But here=s a thought--it=s not necessarily about
the fastest horse of the year, or even the horse with
the best form. I=m not for Zenyatta strictly because she
won the GI Breeders= Cup Classic, beating colts and
breaking Personal Ensign=s unbeaten record in the process.
I=m for Zenyatta just as much because, in a sport
that has been threatening to sink without trace from
American public consciousness following Barbaro=s horrible
breakdown in the 2006 GI Preakness, and Eight
Belles=s horrible breakdown after finishing second in the
2008 GI Kentucky Derby, Zenyatta=s win over the colts
in the Breeders= Cup Classic actually got some ink, and
restored a modicum of respectability to our sport in the
wider public eye. She achieved more than even Rachel
did in that hugely important sphere--those Americans
who have only the mildest of interest in whether horse
racing continues to exist in this country or not. That=s
why--unless they tell me that=s not a valid criterion--she
gets my vote.

lol! I guess nobody watched the Preakness? haha. what an argument!

[Smooth Operator]

Read this Brown piece again … and it still makes no sense.

Face it, Jerry … the 3-year-old colts were mediocre, at best, this year … and the sad fact is … some of them are probably better than the older mules she (barely) hung on to beat in the Woodward.

Wasn't exactly like she was getting the best of a Bernardini … or a Mineshaft … out there.


The REAL challenge for the filly was coming out to the coast and taking on the undefeated, Eclipse-award-winning Breeders' Cup champion mare … and she was a NO SHOW.

No one in their right mind could vote for her over Z, in my opinion … but that's the problem … too many of these voters are out of their minds.

Take 2004, for instance … a significant number of them actually cast their ballots for SJ as HotY.

This was pure insanity when you had a brilliant older horse which not only proved that he was the fastest sprinter in the country … but the fastest router, as well.

Even though it cant happen, but i feel Gio Ponti is as good as these two. He is a champ on the Turf and tried to be on the dirt, not his surface. Could there be another horse that we are overlooking or is it a slam dunk between these two. Has either one of these fillies ran on the Turf? Just a thought.

[Roc525]

Originally Posted by arizonadave

Even though it cant happen, but i feel Gio Ponti is as good as these two. He is a champ on the Turf and tried to be on the dirt, not his surface. Could there be another horse that we are overlooking or is it a slam dunk between these two. Has either one of these fillies ran on the Turf? Just a thought.

Gio is a great horse, but he didn't try to do anything on a dirt surface this year.

[slotdirt]

Originally Posted by Roc525

Gio is a great horse, but he didn't try to do anything on a dirt surface this year.

Neither did Zenyatta though.

The comment that made me chuckle the most on this thread is that Rachel will win Horse of the Year and Zenyatta will retire as the "people's horse." Really? Is that why the Breeders Cup Classic got approximately 1/7 the viewers as Rachel's Preakness? Is that why more people saw Rachel win the Kentucky Oaks than the total combined number of people who watched Zenyatta win her five starts?

If you go back to July or August, I guarantee you all the pretty pony people were just as fired up about Rachel Alexandra and girl power as they are about Zenyatta now.

[Revidere]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

Neither did Zenyatta though.

The comment that made me chuckle the most on this thread is that Rachel will win Horse of the Year and Zenyatta will retire as the "people's horse." Really? Is that why the Breeders Cup Classic got approximately 1/7 the viewers as Rachel's Preakness? Is that why more people saw Rachel win the Kentucky Oaks than the total combined number of people who watched Zenyatta win her five starts?

If you go back to July or August, I guarantee you all the pretty pony people were just as fired up about Rachel Alexandra and girl power as they are about Zenyatta now.

You have to be realistic here. That audience was at least looking to see if Mine that Bird was for real. Not taking anything from Rachel, but the Derby winner (especially 50-1) is going to draw the viewers.

[slotdirt]

You shouldn't be in or around this game if a 19 length win is a snoozefest. I'd hate to see what Revidere would have thought about Secretariat's snoozefest in the 1973 Belmont or Spectacular Bid's Woodward walkover snoozefest in 1979.

Originally Posted by Roc525

Gio is a great horse, but he didn't try to do anything on a dirt surface this year.

i know i am thinking outside the box with this, but Gio Ponti ran 7 times this year and 6 were grade 1 races and won 4 of them. He ran at Belmont,Arlington and Santa Anita. He ran on soft,good,firm and yielding surfaces. true his main surface is turf,but does that make him any worse than both fillies who run on a different surface. havent seen either filly run on the turf, so does the surface really matter. i know i am in the minority, but i will always put my $$$ on this tallented 4year old. he just runs and gave Zenyatta, on a surface that isnt his best, a run for the money.

[letswastemoney]

Originally Posted by arizonadave

i know i am thinking outside the box with this, but Gio Ponti ran 7 times this year and 6 were grade 1 races and won 4 of them. He ran at Belmont,Arlington and Santa Anita. He ran on soft,good,firm and yielding surfaces. true his main surface is turf,but does that make him any worse than both fillies who run on a different surface. havent seen either filly run on the turf, so does the surface really matter. i know i am in the minority, but i will always put my $$$ on this tallented 4year old. he just runs and gave Zenyatta, on a surface that isnt his best, a run for the money.

I don't understand why Zenyatta supporters are not understanding this....but it's the same logic as saying Zenyatta should be HOY.

Gio Ponti accomplished a lot on his surface as Zenyatta accomplished a lot on her own surface. So if people are going to hype Zenyatta for HOY, Gio Ponti arguably had the harder campaign.

Personally, I believe HOTY in America has always had first preference for whoever the dirt champion is (if there is a clear cut one). RA was the clear cut dirt champion. She deserves it.

[alysheba4]

Originally Posted by Smooth Operator

Read this Brown piece again … and it still makes no sense.

Face it, Jerry … the 3-year-old colts were mediocre, at best, this year … and the sad fact is … some of them are probably better than the older mules she (barely) hung on to beat in the Woodward.

Wasn't exactly like she was getting the best of a Bernardini … or a Mineshaft … out there.


The REAL challenge for the filly was coming out to the coast and taking on the undefeated, Eclipse-award-winning Breeders' Cup champion mare … and she was a NO SHOW.

No one in their right mind could vote for her over Z, in my opinion … but that's the problem … too many of these voters are out of their minds.

Take 2004, for instance … a significant number of them actually cast their ballots for SJ as HotY.

This was pure insanity when you had a brilliant older horse which not only proved that he was the fastest sprinter in the country … but the fastest router, as well.

......look, you are dead on. R/A did have the better year...so she is prob. horse of the year. is she better than ZEN? please....R.A barely beat MINE THAT BIRD and MACHO A. ZEN. would blow by both of those like they were anchored to the 16th pole. any surface, just look at the grade 1 at oaklawn.....REAL dirt. same result.

[slotdirt]

Does Zenyatta really "blow" by anyone? Her running style almost guarantees you that she'll never really win a race by open lengths.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by alysheba4

......look, you are dead on. R/A did have the better year...so she is prob. horse of the year. is she better than ZEN? please....R.A barely beat MINE THAT BIRD and MACHO A. ZEN. would blow by both of those like they were anchored to the 16th pole. any surface, just look at the grade 1 at oaklawn.....REAL dirt. same result.

Do you wager with the same disregard for race dynamics? If not, please start.

NT

[kgar311]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

Do you wager with the same disregard for race dynamics? If not, please start.

NT

Don't even engage, a know it all that knows absolutely nothing

[alysheba4]

you gotta let it go. i hope R.A. gets H.O.Y. i want you to be able to sleep well at night.......its not worth the stress man.

[johnny pinwheel]

Originally Posted by alysheba4

......look, you are dead on. R/A did have the better year...so she is prob. horse of the year. is she better than ZEN? please....R.A barely beat MINE THAT BIRD and MACHO A. ZEN. would blow by both of those like they were anchored to the 16th pole. any surface, just look at the grade 1 at oaklawn.....REAL dirt. same result.

i agree totally, RA had a better schedule and is HOY hands down. her resume for the year is better than zenyattas, especially for the fans. the thing i disagree with is this guy saying shes faster. zenyatta beats them in stride and she seems to run forever. i think she wins that woodward EASILY if they were smart enough to go to saratoga. thats the problem, lack of vision by the connections of zenyatta. she could of won any grade one in the east and that would of won it, if not the woodward the jockey gold cup was there for the taking. heck , they could of even won the pacific classic or the goodwoood. but, they played it safe. i think zenyatta can beat Rachel and at 10 furlongs, i know she can. when they finally put zenyatta in top company she laughed at them, meanwhile, like you said rachel was, after all, life and death against macho again, who is alright, but hes no where near the horses that zenyatta totally destroyed. zenyattas probably a better horse but she did not capture the fans or make the campaign that rachel did.