Jerry Brown's letter to TDN on HOY discussion

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by MaTH716

I don't understand why the Rachel camp is the only one getting penalized/scrutinized for not going to the BC (and a surface that they did not want to run on). Moss had every opportunity to ship away from California and race. Maybe if he decided to ship, his case for the horse of the year would be a bit better today reguardless if they beat Rachel or not.

The reason is because some people have elevated the Breeders' Cup to an absolutely absurd status. These people seem to believe that the BCC counts for more than the Oaks, Preakness, Haskell, and Woodward put together simply because somebody put the idiotic title "World Championships" after one particular weekend of racing. It is a complete farce.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by dellinger63

That closes the case for me. And Brian you of all people know humans vote more on emotion than anything else, it's in our nature.

BC was open to Rachel and Jax/Asm chose not to go because of the poly (still shedding Curlin tears) TOUGH. IMO she missed the final exam by choice and gets a zero. Factor a zero into their beyers and TG's and she loses. Besides by giving Zen HOY it forces Jackson into an emotional state where it would be more likely to return next year to avenge a perceived wrong as opposed to doing it for the fans.

"Final exam".. This is so ridiculous. I am not suggesting you are ridiculous just your characterization of the BC Classic as an exam. What was the "Final Exam" before the BC Cup? So now all stake races including G1's have been reduced to homework assignments and quizzes? While I enjoy the BC Cup, this philosopy that the BC is a "final Exam" has caused racing immeasurable harm.

Yo Tim Ice you won the Travers but the Joke is on you as its just a Quiz..Wooley HAHA its just the Deby.. Come on man think this thru!

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by freddymo

"Final exam".. This is so ridiculous. I am not suggesting you are ridiculous just your characterization of the BC Classic as an exam. What was the "Final Exam" before the BC Cup? So now all stake races including G1's have been reduced to homework assignments and quizzes? While I enjoy the BC Cup, this philosopy that the BC is a "final Exam" has caused racing immeasurable harm.

Yo Tim Ice you won the Travers but the Joke is on you as its just a Quiz..Wooley HAHA its just the Deby.. Come on man think this thru!

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by freddymo

"Final exam".. This is so ridiculous. I am not suggesting you are ridiculous just your characterization of the BC Classic as an exam. What was the "Final Exam" before the BC Cup? So now all stake races including G1's have been reduced to homework assignments and quizzes? While I enjoy the BC Cup, this philosopy that the BC is a "final Exam" has caused racing immeasurable harm.

Yo Tim Ice you won the Travers but the Joke is on you as its just a Quiz..Wooley HAHA its just the Deby.. Come on man think this thru!

This is begging for a picture of Kanye interrupting Zenyatta.

[dellinger63]

Originally Posted by freddymo

"Final exam".. This is so ridiculous. I am not suggesting you are ridiculous just your characterization of the BC Classic as an exam. What was the "Final Exam" before the BC Cup? So now all stake races including G1's have been reduced to homework assignments and quizzes? While I enjoy the BC Cup, this philosopy that the BC is a "final Exam" has caused racing immeasurable harm.

Yo Tim Ice you won the Travers but the Joke is on you as its just a Quiz..Wooley HAHA its just the Deby.. Come on man think this thru!

my anti-Jackson bias won't allow it. I don't believe Rachel is coming back next year. She'll have some 'minor' mysterious setback and that will be it. Should Zen win HOY ole Jess will be emotionally forced to bring back Rachel and try and dominate.That I want to see. It's a win-win situation IMO

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by freddymo

"Final exam".. This is so ridiculous. I am not suggesting you are ridiculous just your characterization of the BC Classic as an exam. What was the "Final Exam" before the BC Cup? So now all stake races including G1's have been reduced to homework assignments and quizzes? While I enjoy the BC Cup, this philosopy that the BC is a "final Exam" has caused racing immeasurable harm.

Yo Tim Ice you won the Travers but the Joke is on you as its just a Quiz..Wooley HAHA its just the Deby.. Come on man think this thru!

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

It's curious at best to me why there is so much emotional argument made for Zenyatta.

Those who believe that Rachel deserves the award based on her achievements on the track have trotted out statistic after statistic, talking only about her performances on the track THIS YEAR.

Those who believe Zenyatta deserve it make some flimsy case for her winning it based on the actual racing, mentioning Life Is Sweet running behind her a couple times, mentioning the Grade I Breeders' Cup (Turf) Classic, and then move on to things that have nothing to do at all with racetrack accomplishments. Look at how many people were cheering for her at Santa Anita -- you should have heard it! Look at the press she got! She brought tears to my eyes! She's never lost, even including last year, so she is overdue for a HOY! Mike Smith said she only hit third gear! Jackson is an a$shole and Asmussen is a cheater! If only they had run once past Labor Day, we wouldn't even be having this discussion! Sherriffs threw his hat in the crowd! Didju see that?! Didju see that -- he is so nice and was having so much fun, I cried! Look at how happy I am, it would be a black eye if we didn't give her HOY!

[Roc525]

I find it ridiculous that anyone would think that Z's BCC win will do anything to greatly influence those who "have only the mildest of interest in whether horse racing continues to exist". To be fair, I also don't believe any of Rachel's big wins have greatly influenced that group. The great racing memories this filly and mare have provided us with this year will be remembered only by those of us who follow this sport week by week, year by year. The sad truth is, these moments and memories will fade from the minds of those with only a mild interest.

That being said, and as long as this is actually being used as an argument for Z getting HOY, the fact is the same argument can be made concerning Rachel. One could argue that even after Z's big win, Rachel is still the one that has had more of an impact concerning this "hugely important sphere". While most residing in the West will shout "bias!" from the rooftops, one needs only to look at the poll being conducted by the NY Times concerning HOY.

As it stands now, Rachel is in the lead over Zenyatta 69% to 31%. The poll up to this point has accumulated a total of 2,707 votes. Unless each of these votes has been cast by hardcore racing fans or experts, which we all know isn't the case, I think we can agree that Rachel has also greatly influenced even the mildest of players. So let's call it a draw concerning this type of nonsense and just get back to the facts. The one's that all support Rachel for HOY.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Roc525

While most residing in the West will shout "bias!" from the rooftops, one needs only to look at the poll being conducted by the NY Times concerning HOY.

As it stands now, Rachel is in the lead over Zenyatta 69% to 31%. The poll up to this point has accumulated a total of 2,707 votes.

Hah! Nice try.

You're telling me I'm supposed to take your statistics at face value when the poll was conducted by the NEW YORK Times!?!

!BIAS!

Let's see what the Pasadena Star has to say about all this.

[Merlinsky]

Seriously? Joe Drape's NY Times Counterpoint about HOY lists her floppy eared love of running as one of two things to think about when considering the big beautiful Zenyatta. I can give several things in Rachel's favor before I get to the 'she's so pretty' argument. Not that it doesn't enrapture me to behold Zenyatta, but c'mon. When is that a qualification for HOY? This is not Westminster Best in Show judging. Who wants it more and struts the best is not what HOY is about.

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

This is begging for a picture of Kanye interrupting Zenyatta.

"Yo, Zenyatta, I'm happy for you and Imma let you finish but Beyonce had one of the best rides by Mike Smith of all time."

Originally Posted by miraja2

The reason is because some people have elevated the Breeders' Cup to an absolutely absurd status. These people seem to believe that the BCC counts for more than the Oaks, Preakness, Haskell, and Woodward put together simply because somebody put the idiotic title "World Championships" after one particular weekend of racing. It is a complete farce.

Ah but it was a farce on polytrack. Surely as compared to other farces in American racing, those on dirt take precedent.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by Merlinsky

Seriously? Joe Drape's NY Times Counterpoint about HOY lists her floppy eared love of running as one of two things to think about when considering the big beautiful Zenyatta. I can give several things in Rachel's favor before I get to the 'she's so pretty' argument. Not that it doesn't enrapture me to behold Zenyatta, but c'mon. When is that a qualification for HOY? This is not Westminster Best in Show judging. Who wants it more and struts the best is not what HOY is about.

Funny you mention that, because the first person I told about the NY Times thing, I was laughing about that when explaining it.

I was like "remember how I explained how one camp wants to talk about races and stats, and the other wants to talk about crying and feeling good inside, yea....'and she just has genuine star power,' is one of the things allegedly in her corner for HOY."

It's like the further we get into the "debate," the more crazy the diversions become. In a couple weeks, having exhausted anything bordering on a reasonable analysis, people will be talking about how Rachel's unwillingness to dance before the race to entertain the fans is a serious concern when thinking about HOY voting.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

Funny you mention that, because the first person I told about the NY Times thing, I was laughing about that when explaining it.

I was like "remember how I explained how one camp wants to talk about races and stats, and the other wants to talk about crying and feeling good inside, yea....'and she just has genuine star power,' is one of the things allegedly in her corner for HOY."

It's like the further we get into the "debate," the more crazy the diversions become. In a couple weeks, having exhausted anything bordering on a reasonable analysis, people will be talking about how Rachel's unwillingness to dance before the race to entertain the fans is a serious concern when thinking about HOY voting.

Rachel has her own kind of dance - with devastating results (go to 1:44):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8kRDFNFIl8

[anamulla]

Let's do some poetry

..God created Dirt
..God Created Grass
..Man created Plastic
..I'm still believe in God..

[Handicappy]

Originally Posted by sammy

Forget the surfaces. This is a no-brainer. R.A. is the better horse and she is H.O.Y. Period.

OH, well thanks for clearing this up!

[Smooth Operator]

Originally Posted by sammy

Forget the surfaces. This is a no-brainer. R.A. is the better horse and she is H.O.Y. Period.

It's a no-brainer ... for people who are high on crack.

Granted, enough of the lemmings will likely vote for the Alexander filly to put her over the top for the HotY award … but there's no doubt as to which was the superior animal this year.


Does anyone actually believe that that 3yo filly could've held off the 5yo monster mare in a two-turn 9 or 10f affair on a fair dirt surface???

If so, you really need to step away from Jersey boy's bong for a while…

[letswastemoney]

Originally Posted by Smooth Operator

It's a no-brainer ... for people who are high on crack.

Granted, enough of the lemmings will likely vote for the Alexander filly to put her over the top for the HotY award … but there's no doubt as to which was the superior animal this year.


Does anyone actually believe that that 3yo filly could've held off the 5yo monster mare in a two-turn 9 or 10f affair on a fair dirt surface???

If so, you really need to step away from Jersey boy's bong for a while…

I don't understand why people just assume what would happen. A dirt surface would play more favorably to Rachel's running style, therefore she'd have a better chance. Not saying for sure she'd win, but it would be a close race.

People are letting their emotions get away with Zenyatta's Classic win. She's not invincible. Maybe she can run 112 beyers, but Rachel has proven herself capable of those numbers on a dirt track already.

[Smooth Operator]

When healthy horses are held out of world-class championship events we have no choice but to make assumptions, letswastemoney.


Unfortunately, despite her impressive achievements, RA never proved that she could handle a horse of Z's quality … or that she could stay the classic 10f distance.

Z was older and stronger and likely would've gotten to RA … even on a dry dirt surface, imo.

And I don't believe people are "letting their emotions get away" with Z. Her Classic was a powerful, impressive performance by any objective measure.

[Handicappy]

Originally Posted by gales0678

Zenyatta=s win over the colts
in the Breeders= Cup Classic actually got some ink, and
restored a modicum of respectability to our sport in the
wider public eye. She achieved more than even Rachel
did in that hugely important sphere--those Americans
who have only the mildest of interest in whether horse
racing continues to exist in this country or not.

the problem is that those with mild interest in the sport most likely don't know dirt from pro-ride or know very little about it

when you have the BC 2 years in a row on the pro-ride surface and not 1 dirt horse wins the results mean less , thus Zenyatta's win means less , she is a poly track specialist who ducked coming east this year to run on the dirt and faced no competetion to speak of this year .....simply put it would be a tradegy for horseracing if they give any horse , hoy , for winning only on the poly surface

Ducked coming east? You don't know the Moss' well. They had all the reservations and plans in to come to the Beldame if Rachel was going to be there. She ran her best on the oaklawn dirt. If there was a legit opportunity to duck it would have been the classic with EVERYTHING on the line. Both horses are great and will go down in history. You can make a case for each one or for splitting the trophy. I prefer the latter in view of their incredible contributions to the sport.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Handicappy

Ducked coming east? You don't know the Moss' well. They had all the reservations and plans in to come to the Beldame if Rachel was going to be there. She ran her best on the oaklawn dirt. If there was a legit opportunity to duck it would have been the classic with EVERYTHING on the line. Both horses are great and will go down in history. You can make a case for each one or for splitting the trophy. I prefer the latter in view of their incredible contributions to the sport.

i find that very, very hard to believe considering their comments for most of the year that the bc was in cali, and they saw no reason to leave before that race in late fall.

the fact is that neither camp made much effort to face the other. the 'blame' lies on all their shoulders.

[Pedigree Ann]

"And oh yeah, winning this country's premiere race for three-year-old fillies by 20 lengths. Imagine if a colt won the Derby by 20. Imagine anyone winning a GI by 20. They make HBO movies about that kind of thing."

Mr. Brown needs a history lesson. The Kentucky Oaks is not our premier race for 3yo fillies and never has been. For decades, the real American Oaks (sponsored by the Coaching Club of America) has been run at a real classic distance, either 10f or 12f. And after the CCA Oaks, the Alabama has always had more prestige than the KY Oaks. You do realize that when grading was introduced, the Ky Oaks was only a G2? While the Monmouth Oaks and the Cotillion H at Liberty Bell were G1s? Just because it is run during Derby week doesn't mean that the Ky Oaks is a comparable race.

One could argue that the distance of her win at Churchill was assisted by the sloppy track; fields are always more spread out on off tracks.