I Really Wish I Could Have Seen......

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I'm even more sure you are wrong.

I think we have had this discussion about 37 times, but just out of curiosity, at what distance would you have wanted to see your namesake compete with the big boys? Certainly not 10f. They would have destroyed him.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by miraja2

I think we have had this discussion about 37 times, but just out of curiosity, at what distance would you have wanted to see your namesake compete with the big boys? Certainly not 10f. They would have destroyed him.

8f. Even up to 9f. I think beyond that, they start to even out. Depending on who else was in the race and how the pace played out, they might never catch KG going 10f. But at 8f, I don't think they'd have a chance of catching him.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

at 8f, I don't think they'd have a chance of catching him.

Not a chance? Have you watched Easy Goer's 8f effort in the Gotham recently? I would argue that was a better race than KG ever ran at any distance.
At 8f, KG would have a shot, but at 9f+ I'd give him little or no chance.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by miraja2

Not a chance? Have you watched Easy Goer's 8f effort in the Gotham recently? I would argue that was a better race than KG ever ran at any distance.
At 8f, KG would have a shot, but at 9f+ I'd give him little or no chance.

I watched it the day he ran it. Fast tracks and conditions lead to strange results. I know Aqueduct is often a very fast track during those big racing days in the early spring. I also saw him run a very good mile in the Champagne as a 2yo. I also saw him in the Met Mile as a 4yo. I think there are some horses that run extremely well when allowed to do just what they want to do. At 8f, I think EG's rider would be forced to make a decision to run with him early (and I don't think he could) or let him go and hope he came back to him (and I don't think he would). It's a huge difference between third rate speed and first rate speed. KG was first rate.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

At some point in the last five to ten years, some bright individual figured out that that makes them look kinda stupid.

You made a mistake ... and Rollo Tomasi stole your candy and went five hole on your goalie.

It happens. I've been dunked on by Rollo before.

But instead of just brushing it off and moving along... you pulled the goalie and came with the throw as much crap at the wall and hopefully something sticks offense.

It didn't work ... and now I have an empty net to shoot at.

Here's a recap of April 4th '92 at Santa Anita:

Race #1: Turf
Race #2: 32K older male claimers went 8.5fs in 1:42.76
Race #3: Turf
Race #4: N1X alw race for fillies went 6fs in 1:09.75
Race #5: Santa Anita Derby went 9fs in 1:49.25
Race #6: a MSW race at 6.5fs went in 1:16.01
Race #7: Turf
Race #8: San Bernardino went 9fs in 1:47.33
Race #9: a MSW race at 6.5fs went in 1:16.56


You're claiming that a variant should have been split. Well, at what point in the card exactly?

32K older male claimers ran a 95 Beyer in race 2 - A. P. Indy ran a 95 Beyer in race 5 - and Another Review ran a 114 in Race #8.

You're basically arguing that the track was very fast for the first two dirt races ... and someone slowed the speed of the track down markedly for the Santa Anita Derby ... but just minutes after the SA Derby... the track had magically returned to the same speed it was just minutes before the SA Derby.

The only rational thing you could have attempted to argue is that a timer malfunction occured.

I've already discussed how the winner was scratched from his next race - and the 2nd and 3rd place horses didn't win a single race the rest of the year ... but here's a recap of the rest of that field:

4th place finisher Hickman Creek - came out of the race with an injury and was sidelined the rest of the year. Failed in his next 5 starts - all at the N2X alw level.

5th place finisher Fax News - was soundly beaten in each of his next 7 starts

6th place finisher Solid Turth - made his next start in a 50K claimer and finished 7th

7th place finisher Proud Memories - Was beaten 16 lengths in a MSW race his start before the SA Derby - was beaten 15 lengths in the SA Derby - and was 9th beaten 10 lengths at the MSW race level his start after the SA Derby.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

You made a mistake ... and Rollo Tomasi stole your candy and went five hole on your goalie.

It happens. I've been dunked on by Rollo before.

But instead of just brushing it off and moving along... you pulled the goalie and came with the throw as much crap at the wall and hopefully something sticks offense.

It didn't work ... and now I have an empty net to shoot at.

Here's a recap of April 4th '92 at Santa Anita:

Race #1: Turf
Race #2: 32K older male claimers went 8.5fs in 1:42.76
Race #3: Turf
Race #4: N1X alw race for fillies went 6fs in 1:09.75
Race #5: Santa Anita Derby went 9fs in 1:49.25
Race #6: a MSW race at 6.5fs went in 1:16.01
Race #7: Turf
Race #8: San Bernardino went 9fs in 1:47.33
Race #9: a MSW race at 6.5fs went in 1:16.56


You're claiming that a variant should have been split. Well, at what point in the card exactly?

32K older male claimers ran a 95 Beyer in race 2 - A. P. Indy ran a 95 Beyer in race 5 - and Another Review ran a 114 in Race #8.

You're basically arguing that the track was very fast for the first two dirt races ... and someone slowed the speed of the track down markedly for the Santa Anita Derby ... but just minutes after the SA Derby... the track had magically returned to the same speed it was just minutes before the SA Derby.

The only rational thing you could have attempted to argue is that a timer malfunction occured.

I've already discussed how the winner was scratched from his next race - and the 2nd and 3rd place horses didn't win a single race the rest of the year ... but here's a recap of the rest of that field:

4th place finisher Hickman Creek - came out of the race with an injury and was sidelined the rest of the year. Failed in his next 5 starts - all at the N2X alw level.

5th place finisher Fax News - was soundly beaten in each of his next 7 starts

6th place finisher Solid Turth - made his next start in a 50K claimer and finished 7th

7th place finisher Proud Memories - Was beaten 16 lengths in a MSW race his start before the SA Derby - was beaten 15 lengths in the SA Derby - and was 9th beaten 10 lengths at the MSW race level his start after the SA Derby.

I cannot account for how they do things, or how they used to do things, but I do know I've seen them adjust figs on a card seemingly without reason.

I don't care what nonsensical facts you throw at me. I saw the race, my friends saw the race, thousands of others saw the race, and that was no allowance type of performance.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

I don't care what nonsensical facts you throw at me. I saw the race, my friends saw the race, thousands of others saw the race, and that was no allowance type of performance.

Anyone who thought AP Indy was a lock in the Derby on the basis of that performance .. is a lock to have bowed out of betting on horse racing by now, no matter the good skills they have in other areas of handicapping.

Unless they have a fortune of money to lose and don't mind losing it.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

At 8f, I think EG's rider would be forced to make a decision to run with him early (and I don't think he could) or let him go and hope he came back to him (and I don't think he would). It's a huge difference between third rate speed and first rate speed. KG was first rate.

King Glorious was at his very limit going 8f. His stretch runs for the Hollywood Futurity, Ohio Derby, and Haskell were some of the ugliest this side of Medallist. In two of those races, he defeated Music Merci handily, despite the fact that the latter had dead aim on him at the top of the stretch. Coupled with the fact that KG either switched leads inappropriately or failed to switch altogether (not to mention drift out badly) in those races, you certainly couldn't be faulted for suggestioning KG had his fair share of "heart". However, it should be noted that Music Merci, like KG, was distance challenged, notoriously hanging down the lane after big turn moves (see the BC Juvenile for another example) in his route races. Sure enough, later in his career, Music Merci was a top class sprinter.

As for Easy Goer, he was a bit handier than you care to admit. Recall he blitzed them in the Swale going 7f in a quick time. As far as the cheap speed he was facing, certainly Is It True was a classy horse who defeated the same horses King Glorious made his name beating at both 2 and 3 (Music Merci, Roi Danzig). Though not top class, it should be noted that the speed horses EG chased in both the Gotham and Swale (Diamond Donnie and Trion) had run the rest of the field enough off their feet to hold the place spots.

Not sure what the implication was when alluding to the '90 Met Mile, but it being his penultimate start along with the reported ankle troubles throughout his career that were soon to end it, is enough to suggest that he was perhaps not at his best physically at that point. Its unfair to take that race at face value if at the same time we forgive King Glorious for failing to have constitution enough to race beyond July of his 3yo year.

[DogsUp]

I would have liked to have been at the 1958 Santa Anita Derby with $100 to win on Silky Sullivan. Could you imagine the feeling when SS dropped 28 lengths behind.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by DogsUp

I would have liked to have been at the 1958 Santa Anita Derby with $100 to win on Silky Sullivan. Could you imagine the feeling when SS dropped 28 lengths behind.

Freefourtinternet's Hawthorne Gold Cup was pretty similarly legendary....though running down the heartless Perfect Drift hardly makes him a legend.

I gotta try to find video of that race sometime....

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

King Glorious was at his very limit going 8f. His stretch runs for the Hollywood Futurity, Ohio Derby, and Haskell were some of the ugliest this side of Medallist. In two of those races, he defeated Music Merci handily, despite the fact that the latter had dead aim on him at the top of the stretch. Coupled with the fact that KG either switched leads inappropriately or failed to switch altogether (not to mention drift out badly) in those races, you certainly couldn't be faulted for suggestioning KG had his fair share of "heart". However, it should be noted that Music Merci, like KG, was distance challenged, notoriously hanging down the lane after big turn moves (see the BC Juvenile for another example) in his route races. Sure enough, later in his career, Music Merci was a top class sprinter.

As for Easy Goer, he was a bit handier than you care to admit. Recall he blitzed them in the Swale going 7f in a quick time. As far as the cheap speed he was facing, certainly Is It True was a classy horse who defeated the same horses King Glorious made his name beating at both 2 and 3 (Music Merci, Roi Danzig). Though not top class, it should be noted that the speed horses EG chased in both the Gotham and Swale (Diamond Donnie and Trion) had run the rest of the field enough off their feet to hold the place spots.

Not sure what the implication was when alluding to the '90 Met Mile, but it being his penultimate start along with the reported ankle troubles throughout his career that were soon to end it, is enough to suggest that he was perhaps not at his best physically at that point. Its unfair to take that race at face value if at the same time we forgive King Glorious for failing to have constitution enough to race beyond July of his 3yo year.

I don't count being sold and sent to another country not having constitution but everyone has differing opinions. I don't see a horse that has runaway wins at 9f, including one of the premier races in the country for 3yos as having been at their absolute limit at 8f. That doesn't make sense to me. I would agree if you said 9f wasn't his best distance though. I do recall Easy Goer winning the Swale in his 3yo debut. I was there. I know EG is one of the most talented horses of the past quarter century and I believe he probably had the ability to be a top sprinter if they had so chosen for him to be. But I was also there when King Glorious scorched Hollywood in 1:21 1/5 off a 3 1/2 month layoff, which DRF reported at the time equalled the second fastest time ever for a 2yo. I was also there when KG ran 1:08 4/5 in the Hollywood Juvenile. I don't think Easy Goer had the speed to run with KG up to 8f and would need KG to be softened up some to catch him at 9f. I agree with Gary Stevens, who said that had a healthy KG been there for the SA Derby, Sunday Silence wouldn't have been favored. I agree with Chris McCarron, who rode both KG and Sunday Silence, when he says that up to 8f, SS and EG wouldn't know what hit them. Maybe we are all wrong. We'll never know.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I don't count being sold and sent to another country not having constitution but everyone has differing opinions.

King Glorious reportedly had physical issues throughout his career, specifically with his knees (the reason why he missed the Triple Crown). Given the way he tended to finish up his races, plus the fact that he was allegedly pointed for 4 big races, one after he defected from the other, namely the Travers, Iselin, Molson Million, and Super Derby, its not hard to presume that some sort of physical issue ended his career. His sale to the JRA was announced in October, after all four of those races had been run.

I don't see a horse that has runaway wins at 9f, including one of the premier races in the country for 3yos as having been at their absolute limit at 8f. That doesn't make sense to me.

I think we've all well established that the Haskell field year was anything but "premier".

I agree with Gary Stevens, who said that had a healthy KG been there for the SA Derby, Sunday Silence wouldn't have been favored.

Sunday Silence wasn't favored anyway. Another sprinter/miler type like KG, Houston , was.

I agree with Chris McCarron, who rode both KG and Sunday Silence, when he says that up to 8f, SS and EG wouldn't know what hit them

Well, while you put all your stock in what the jockey's say, I'll stick with the journalists, like Steven Crist, who wrote after the Haskell (echoed by several other turf writers):

King Glorious was good enough to hold on for a three-length victory in the $500,000 Haskell Handicap today at Monmouth Park, but left the impression that stronger opposition and longer distances may give him serious trouble.

The California-based front-runner ran his career record to 8 for 9 today and became the sport's newest millionaire. But his slow final furlong and final time, as he shortened stride badly through the stretch, suggested he would have difficulty handling Easy Goer and Sunday Silence, the nation's top 3-year-olds.