Top 5 best two-surface horses of the last 20 years

The Indomitable DrugS · #1 10-21-2009, 10:16 AM

Gentlemen's likely in the bottom half of my top 10 or top half of my 11 to 15. It would require too much analytical thinking for me to place him off the top of my head.

He was a super dirt horse ... imagine if he was around in Curlin's time?

His flop as the 2/5 favorite in Atto Mile hurts him though .. even though it was followed by a layoff and was basically a downward turning point in his career.

CSC · #2 10-21-2009, 10:22 AM

Off the top of my head 3 worth discussing Chester House, Dance Smartly and War Chant all showed a proficiency for both surfaces.

King Glorious · #3 10-21-2009, 10:27 AM

What do you say about Prized, who defeated Sunday Silence on the dirt then won the BC Turf in his grass debut?

Other top ones that come to mind for me include Arazi, Dayjur, Sheikh Albadou, and Raven's Pass.

Antitrust32 · #4 10-21-2009, 10:37 AM

Barbaro should Definately be on this list even if his career didnt last long.

CSC · #5 10-21-2009, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

Barbaro should Definately be on this list even if his career didnt last long.

Considering how short his career was, definitely.

The Indomitable DrugS · #6 10-21-2009, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

Barbaro should Definately be on this list even if his career didnt last long.

He'd have a much better chance than Peace Rules or Big Brown for a top 20.

Absolutely no way top 5 though. He buried an extremely sucky Derby field, and had narrow wins over the ultra sucky Great Point and Sharp Humor .. those were his 3 dirt wins.

His turf wins were great .. but they came as a 2yo when turf racing isn't even a thought.

Indian Charlie · #7 10-21-2009, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

He'd have a much better chance than Peace Rules or Big Brown for a top 20.

Absolutely no way top 5 though. He buried an extremely sucky Derby field, and had narrow wins over the ultra sucky Great Point and Sharp Humor .. those were his 3 dirt wins.

His turf wins were great .. but they came as a 2yo when turf racing isn't even a thought.

So, by use of your illogic, the fields Barbaro beat in Fla (dirt) were better than the 'sucky' derby field he buried, since they managed to finish much closer to Barbaro?

I realize you will try to bait me with that argument until one of us dies, but dude, cmon.

The Indomitable DrugS · #8 10-21-2009, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

So, by use of your illogic, the fields Barbaro beat in Fla (dirt) were better than the 'sucky' derby field he buried, since they managed to finish much closer to Barbaro?

I realize you will try to bait me with that argument until one of us dies, but dude, cmon.

Barbaro's 3 lifetime dirt wins:

* 1st by 3/4 of a length in the Holy Bull. 2nd place finisher Great Point's lifetime best Beyer is a 96 .. and he's currently running for 5K claiming tags in Puerto Rico. My Golden Song was 3rd.

* 1st by a half length in the Florida Derby. Sharp Humor was 2nd. He never won another race in 3 more tries.

* 1st by 6.5 lengths in the Kentucky Derby. Bluegrass Cat, who was beaten 21 lengths by Sinister Minister in his prior start, was 2nd. Steppenwolfer was 3rd. The same Steppenwolfer that just ran 6th in a Steeplechase race at Fair Hill the other day. A horse who has never ran a triple digit fig once before.

I'm sorry, but he beat absolutely nothing on dirt. And only once did he even ever run fast while beating nothing. I'm sure he was improving .. but he's so much more about what he might have done than what he actually did do.

Big Brown's Ky Derby win was clearly more impressive than Barbaro's. His prior form coming into the Derby was also more impressive. That's why BB was a strong favorite ... and Barbaro was only vying for favortisim with Sweetnorthernsaint and Brother Derek.

And if I'm not a big fan of Big Brown at all... how could I think much more of Barbaro?

As far as turf racing though ... Barbaro and Incurable Optimist were probably the two best 2yo turf horses I ever saw.

The Indomitable DrugS · #9 10-21-2009, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Glorious

What do you say about Prized, who defeated Sunday Silence on the dirt then won the BC Turf in his grass debut?

Other top ones that come to mind for me include Arazi, Dayjur, Sheikh Albadou, and Raven's Pass.

The big wins from Prized came in '89 .. but yeah, excellent on both surfaces.

The Indomitable DrugS · #10 10-21-2009, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSC

Off the top of my head 3 worth discussing Chester House, Dance Smartly and War Chant all showed a proficiency for both surfaces.

Chester House made four career starts on dirt and was never 1st or 2nd. Even losing to Lager at AQU. Not a great turf horse either - though he had a race or two for sure.

War Chant's biggest win on dirt was a narrow win over Archer City Slew in the San Rafeal. He beat Road to Slew in his first turf win - and won a 4 way blanket finish in his BC Mile win.

I think War Chant's dam Hollywood Wildcat is FAR more deserving. She was a beast on turf - and owns a Breeders Cup Distaff win on dirt.

I loved Dance Smartly - but her turf races weren't that impressive.

Affirmed Success is an American based horse who could make a top 20.

Balto Star beat The Tin Man on turf in the United Nations and Mineshaft on dirt in the year Mineshaft won the HOY. He was a super 3yo during the KY derby prep season. He could possibly weasel into a top 20 list.

Antitrust32 · #11 10-21-2009, 10:39 AM

along with barbaro, i think Peace Rules was okay on both surfaces.

CSC · #12 10-21-2009, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I loved Dance Smartly - but her turf races weren't that impressive.

I think DS is one of the most underrated horses of this era despite making the HOF, understandably perhaps because alot of race goers just didn't have a chance to see her best races which came in Canada, but thankfully her races are now readily available on youtube for everyone to see if they are interested. Her Breeders stakes turf race was a superb effort in her 3 yr old season.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypzZ9...eature=related

Unfortunately she suffered an injury prior to her 4 yr old and she wasn't the same horse after that, still she managed a good 3rd in the Bev D. I wish she had run a few more times in America in her 3 yr old season to see where she stood to the other great fillies. Perhaps this would have given her the recognition she truly deserved.

cakes44 · #13 10-21-2009, 11:00 AM

How far down the list would Electrocutionist be?

The Indomitable DrugS · #14 10-21-2009, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cakes44

How far down the list would Electrocutionist be?

He's in the top 20 mix ... excellent turf horse with two ok dirt wins ... but beating Brass Hat and Wilko in workmanlike fashion only gets you so far.

The Indomitable DrugS · #15 10-21-2009, 11:55 AM

Elusive Quality is like a top 5-to-10 two-surface horse based on speed figures ... but would probably be impossible to put in the top 500 because of his record.

Ultimate all-time poster horse for big speed figures against cheap horses and big flops in stakes.

Elusive Quality ran a 122 Beyer on dirt as a 4yo and a 123 on dirt the next year. He also ran a 112 on turf - only a 113 by Da Hoss in the Breeders Cup Mile was higher on turf that year.

The problem is that Elusive Quality never won a stakes race of any kind on dirt - and never won anything more than a Grade 3 on turf. Good sire though - he has a Kentucky Derby winner in Smarty Jones and a BC Classic winner in Raven's Pass .. as well as a top flight 3yo this year in Quality Road.

richard · #16 10-21-2009, 11:00 AM

Affirmed Success jumps out at me . A great one .

smuthg · #17 10-21-2009, 11:09 AM

I can't remember, were any of Invasor's wins in South America on the turf? What about Midnight Lute? Great on Dirt and a Breeders' Cup Sprint winner on both Dirt and "pro-ride"...

On the Barbaro front, how many exclusively US based horses would be placed ahead of him?

The Indomitable DrugS · #18 10-21-2009, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smuthg

I can't remember, were any of Invasor's wins in South America on the turf? What about Midnight Lute? Great on Dirt and a Breeders' Cup Sprint winner on both Dirt and "pro-ride"...

On the Barbaro front, how many exclusively US based horses would be placed ahead of him?

No and No with Invasor and ML.

However ... Midnight Lute and Raven's Pass have the two best cases for syth and something else.

Obviously dirt and syn for ML and turf and syn for RP. Though, that wasn't what I intended to rate.

As for Barbaro ... it really boils down to two questions. 1.) are you rating based on what he might have done or what he actually did? 2.) Do you discredit 2yo turf racing because it's never mattered much here?

Based on how you answer those two questions ... you'll either have very few exclusive US horses ahead of him or many.

Indian Charlie · #19 10-21-2009, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Gentlemen's likely in the bottom half of my top 10 or top half of my 11 to 15. It would require too much analytical thinking for me to place him off the top of my head.

He was a super dirt horse ... imagine if he was around in Curlin's time?

His flop as the 2/5 favorite in Atto Mile hurts him though .. even though it was followed by a layoff and was basically a downward turning point in his career.

That was over a good turf course, so who knows. Combined with his downward form from that point, I'd say that race was a toss.

How about his turf stakes debut in Argentina, in which he ran 132.3?

Or his Citation win: 24 for the 1/4, 47.3 for the half, 110.3 for 3/4, and amazing 133.3 for the mile and a final time of 145.2 for 9f.

If I remember correctly, his one try over an off turf in Argentina was abysmal.

If you toss his 2 wet turf races, he has a turf record of 5 wins and a second in 6 starts, with that lone loss coming in his debut.