The sad cost of war

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Riot

Spending is, unfortunately, the answer to a recession or a depression. Don't forget the last time - people were essentially being paid to dig a hole, fill it up, dig another hole. If the government hadn't done anything (and this has been coming for some time, remember the previous administration did have a "hands off" policy pretty much for the economy, thus it worsened ... ), double the jobless numbers (Detroit automaker disaster, plus all the smaller manufacturing industries associated with that, that make parts) and add many of them in as homeless or starving. Ohio would probably be under marshall law right now. It would be very, very ugly.

Adding healthcare for the uninsured (40 million people max out of 300 million) - that's not a very expensive thing. Seriously - a trillion over 10 years, less than 1% of our budget.

I am really, really old But what I was talking about was Nixon and gold. I vaguely remember the horror when Lyndon Johnson implemented Medicare. And healthcare - I wish Bush had done it. That was something he had talked about. He got distracted by wars.

the war got us out of the depression. and two wars helped get us into this one.
i just read where we're going to spend millions to get afgani's not to plant poppy seeds. hell, we must be better off then i thought.


japan attempted the stimulus way out of their recession a few years back-it didn't work. that was one of the things mentioned when d.c. started ramping up talks about one here. wise is he who learns from others' mistakes. but i guess we're not that wise.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Danzig

japan attempted the stimulus way out of their recession a few years back-it didn't work. that was one of the things mentioned when d.c. started ramping up talks about one here. wise is he who learns from others' mistakes. but i guess we're not that wise.

But so far it appears to be working just fine.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Riot

But so far it appears to be working just fine.

our stimulus and recovery is just fine?! really?!?! i read today that if you include people working part-time who used to work full time, and people who have given up on finding a job into the unemployment figures, that we're at almost 17% unemployment. yeah, it sounds just peachy to me. but i guess i should listen to barack more, and the naysayers less....

[GBBob]

Originally Posted by Danzig

our stimulus and recovery is just fine?! really?!?! i read today that if you include people working part-time who used to work full time, and people who have given up on finding a job into the unemployment figures, that we're at almost 17% unemployment. yeah, it sounds just peachy to me. but i guess i should listen to barack more, and the naysayers less....

So...Obama is to blame for this? As I always ask anyone who is blaming Obama...please..what would you be doing differently? Details Deb, AJ, Cannon, Dell...Nothing? No Stimulus? No bailouts? No cash for clunkers?

Wait..I know...tax cuts....strip all funded programs, let the rich pay less and hope that Reagan's pipe dream actually works

[Riot]

Originally Posted by GBBob

Wait..I know...tax cuts....strip all funded programs, let the rich pay less and hope that Reagan's pipe dream actually works

Obama has already given them a tax cut in their paychecks.

[GBBob]

Originally Posted by Riot

Obama has already given them a tax cut in their paychecks.

That can't be true..he's a communist

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by GBBob

That can't be true..he's a communist

Its not true but never let facts get in the way of a good story

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Riot

Obama has already given them a tax cut in their paychecks.

one which i recall i said was ridiculous and unnecessary-with the state we're in, there should have been no cuts, and a freeze put on govt budgets, most of which saw an increase when the stimulus passed.

and here lately, i've been reading an awful lot about teachers and govt workers (maybe just in this state, but somehow i doubt it) who 'retire' and then go right back to the same job-double dipping from the public trough. it angers me. obama worrying about 'his presidency' when the country is on the line angers me. he's supposed to be our leader, not worrying about his ego or his legacy.

and i didn't think i'd ever see where almost double digit true unemployment was backing away from a precipice. positive job growth will convince me we're heading in the right direction-and that will take a lot of time. i've seen 2013, 2014 mentioned as when that could happen.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by GBBob

So...Obama is to blame for this? As I always ask anyone who is blaming Obama...please..what would you be doing differently? Details Deb, AJ, Cannon, Dell...Nothing? No Stimulus? No bailouts? No cash for clunkers?

Wait..I know...tax cuts....strip all funded programs, let the rich pay less and hope that Reagan's pipe dream actually works:zz:

i'm not one to say that the exact opposite is the correct way. what i am saying is that things are certainly far from rosey, and that now is not the time to be spending billions more dollars we don't have than we are already spending. if the deficit is the huge problem many feel it is, how can growing that deficit be the answer?

obama is another politician. no more, no less. you won't see me on here cheerleading for any party. to me they are both the same, out for themselves and what keeps them in power. and no, no cash for clunkers-how ridiculous. as for the banks, that was years in the making, and should never have been allowed to occur. the war in iraq wouldn't have happened either-these are rhetorical questions, right? so i can turn back time?


edit-and no, i don't think obama is to blame for 'all this'. but i think he's ignoring what is really going on right now in his attempt to push this health care idea. this is not the right time for the govt to become larger. instead, he needs to end our two wars that are doing so much to drain our funds-that is our biggest expense, and is what took us from good times to bad. he's not to blame, our govt is. and right now, he's the leader of that govt. d.c. got us into this mess, they need to get us out. but i won't hold my breath.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Danzig

but i think he's ignoring what is really going on right now in his attempt to push this health care idea. .

The Stimulus Package? The past six months (the first six months) of his administration? All that was talked about was the recession, and passing measures to get us out. Which appear to be working, and slowing-plateauing the recession as we speak.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Riot

The Stimulus Package? The past six months (the first six months) of his administration? All that was talked about was the recession, and passing measures to get us out. Which appear to be working, and slowing-plateauing the recession as we speak.

i said 'in his attempt to push his health care'. what that has to do with the stimulus i don't know. but he is ignoring the deficit and the harm it does by attempting to increase govt spending. the health care plan he is proposing is incredily expensive, and won't cover the amount of americans he says it will. a very costly plan for a small percentage of coverage. there is more to the story than just the recession-the deficit is the single biggest thing affecting our economy, and he's growing it. did you see the CBO numbers on his budget, which includes his health care plan?

Originally Posted by Riot

The Stimulus Package? The past six months (the first six months) of his administration? All that was talked about was the recession, and passing measures to get us out. Which appear to be working, and slowing-plateauing the recession as we speak.

LMAO

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by GBBob

So...Obama is to blame for this? As I always ask anyone who is blaming Obama...please..what would you be doing differently? Details Deb, AJ, Cannon, Dell...Nothing? No Stimulus? No bailouts? No cash for clunkers?

Wait..I know...tax cuts....strip all funded programs, let the rich pay less and hope that Reagan's pipe dream actually works

I would change things by actually do something for the people that have been hurt the most and helped the least by the Obama agenda, small business. Instead of "creating" temporary govt fueled jobs, help the employers get back on thier feet without creating burdens like mandated healthcare. Concentrate on getting your own party in line with your ideas and not let second rate hacks like pelosi and reid who are dispised by a vast majority of the countries citizens regardless of demographic, run the show. Understand that Unions are detrimental to world trade in regards to US companies ability to compete and scale their influence back by just telling them no instead of giving them the keys to the blackhole that GM has become. Stop worrying about populist programs designed to swing votes instead of work constructively. Work on reducing the defecit now that it has been taken to epic heights. Remember that our allies abroad have been supportive of us and not keep stepping on their toes to curry favor with despots and religious maniacs.

[timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by GBBob

So...Obama is to blame for this? As I always ask anyone who is blaming Obama...please..what would you be doing differently? Details Deb, AJ, Cannon, Dell...Nothing? No Stimulus? No bailouts? No cash for clunkers?

Wait..I know...tax cuts....strip all funded programs, let the rich pay less and hope that Reagan's pipe dream actually works

So....why don't you critique what the great one has done so far.....try balancing the book also!

[Danzig]

i'm not quite sure how this thread got off on the tangent it did...but i went to factcheck.org to see if they had anything on obama's great health care plan, and whether it would add to our already incredibly bloated deficit. it does:


http://www.factcheck.org/2009/07/oba...ws-conference/


■Obama promised once again that a health care overhaul “will be paid for.” But congressional budget experts say the bills they’ve seen so far would add hundreds of billions of dollars to the deficit over the next decade.


and as for his overall budget? ~■Obama claimed his budget "reduced federal spending over the next 10 years by $2.2 trillion" compared with where it was headed before. Not true. Even figures from his own budget experts don’t support that. The Congressional Budget Office projects a $2.7 trillion increase, not a $2.2 trillion cut.


so, if obama has great ideas, fine. if he turns out to be a great president-wonderful. but MY beef with him is his spending, and the above shows why i'm concerned. i don't give a damn what party he belongs to, i don't care about his ability to give good speech. but all i've seen from his treasury secretary and from economists is that our economy will not do well, will continue to take blow after blow, if our deficit isn't brought under control. yet our president wants to spend even more that we don't have.

[Danzig]

and here's this, on the stimulus spending, from a few months back:


http://www.factcheck.org/2009/06/mak...ulus-spending/


~The Obama team originally estimated, for example, that unless a stimulus plan was enacted, the unemployment rate would reach nearly 9 percent sometime in the first three months of next year....


...But as things have turned out, even with the big spending package in place, the jobless rate shot up to 9.4 percent in May, according to the most recent figures from the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Danzig

our stimulus and recovery is just fine?! really?!?! i read today that if you include people working part-time who used to work full time, and people who have given up on finding a job into the unemployment figures, that we're at almost 17% unemployment. yeah, it sounds just peachy to me. but i guess i should listen to barack more, and the naysayers less....

"The unemployment rate fell to 9.4 percent as the U.S. economy shed 247,000 jobs in July, the government announced on Friday morning. The drop -- the first in 15 months -- comes as a surprise; economists had expected the rate to rise to as high as 9.7 percent.

By a broader measure that includes people who've given up looking for work or who can't find full-time jobs, the unemployment rate fell to 16.3 percent, down from 16.5 percent in June."


'Zig, read this synopsis of the major economic indicators this guy has cobbled from Bloomberg, etc. We're not out, by any means, and won't be soon, but we are standing back from the precipice.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/hale-s..._b_254600.html

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

"The unemployment rate fell to 9.4 percent as the U.S. economy shed 247,000 jobs in July, the government announced on Friday morning. The drop -- the first in 15 months -- comes as a surprise; economists had expected the rate to rise to as high as 9.7 percent.

By a broader measure that includes people who've given up looking for work or who can't find full-time jobs, the unemployment rate fell to 16.3 percent, down from 16.5 percent in June."


'Zig, read this synopsis of the major economic indicators this guy has cobbled from Bloomberg, etc. We're not out, by any means, and won't be soon, but we are standing back from the precipice.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/hale-s..._b_254600.html

The definition of a good week certainly has changed. Yeah we only lost a quarter of a million jobs last month! But thats better than last month!

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The definition of a good week certainly has changed. Yeah we only lost a quarter of a million jobs last month! But thats better than last month!

??? Yes, the definition of a good week is changed when we're in a recession.

Yes, the job loss rate is slowing, and appears to be topping out. If you bother to look at that article I posted, containing charts and graphs of the past months/years in multiple categories, we can discuss those facts, rather than off-the-cuff emotional comments.

You'll see what has been happening to the measures of manufacturing, personal spending, jobless rate, employment - all appear to be stabilizing. That's good. Very good.

Much better than being in a depression, or a deeping recession.

Bush didn't do anything (hands off approach) and the recession worsened until it was about to drop off the cliff into depression. The initial implementation of the stimulus package (the majority of it not yet in place) - an idea supported by most, yes MOST independent and major economists - appears indeed to have slowed the recession, preventing us from going into a depression.

Of course, that could have just been "chance and good luck", too.

Of course I know that the new administration was supposed to get us into a period of rapid, sustained growth inside a month or two, immediately turning everything around, and as that hasn't happened yet, the new administration is a failure. LOL.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

But so far it appears to be working just fine.

Yeah the stimlus is working so great they have been talking about another....