What is C BROWN UP TO?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

BUT... the drugs they can use to increase performance are always 1 step ahead of the drugs you can test for. If the drug testers figure out a way to test for a 3rd generation morphine then the chemists just develop a 4th generation that cant be tested for... and on and on.

This is just the plain and simple truth.

I think you are absolutely giving these guys too much credit I talk to several other vets that work in various states, and everyone knows what the current hot fad drugs are these morons are trying.

These guys are not chemists, nor pharmacologists, nor magicians. They are no more sophisticated chemically than the average meth dealer. They are not smart. They are not "one step ahead" all the time.

Believe me, if they were that adept, they'd easily make big bucks doing it legally

They buy regular human drugs and other made up crap off the internet, or get stuff through other grey-market sources, and throw it on the wall (into the horse) and see what sticks. "Let's try Viagra to see if the cardiovascular side effects will make the horse run faster"

Geesh, the harness guys try stuff way before the TB guys do The TB industry knows what's coming it's way.

There are not hundreds of magical, undetectable moveup drugs that make the horse run faster and farther, without detectable side effects or obvious changes in the horses' physiology (pupil dilation, heart rate, respiratory rate, muscle activity, sweating, etc)

I'm not saying there are not guys that cheat, or that there is stuff being used that's currently undetectable - of course there is.

It's just not the magical mystery tour chemical free-for-all some think it is. C'mon guys, we have to base it in reality.

Originally Posted by Riot

I think you are absolutely giving these guys too much credit I talk to several other vets that work in various states, and everyone knows what the current hot fad drugs are these morons are trying.

These guys are not chemists, nor pharmacologists, nor magicians. They are no more sophisticated chemically than the average meth dealer. They are not smart. They are not "one step ahead" all the time.

Believe me, if they were that adept, they'd easily make big bucks doing it legally

They buy regular human drugs and other made up crap off the internet, or get stuff through other grey-market sources, and throw it on the wall (into the horse) and see what sticks. "Let's try Viagra to see if the cardiovascular side effects will make the horse run faster"

Geesh, the harness guys try stuff way before the TB guys do The TB industry knows what's coming it's way.

There are not hundreds of magical, undetectable moveup drugs that make the horse run faster and farther, without detectable side effects or obvious changes in the horses' physiology (pupil dilation, heart rate, respiratory rate, muscle activity, sweating, etc)

I'm not saying there are not guys that cheat, or that there is stuff being used that's currently undetectable - of course there is.

It's just not the magical mystery tour chemical free-for-all some think it is. C'mon guys, we have to base it in reality.

Did you read her post or are you hitting the bottle tonight?

[Rupert Pupkin]

The detention barn is good because it prevents guys from giving anything to the horse within 6 hours (or however long they have to stay in the detention barn for) of the race. Most of the undetectable drugs that the cheaters give the horses were usually given to the horse a few hours before the race. So at least the test barn prevents this from happening.

Unfortunately some of the more sophisticated cheaters have stuff that is so strong that it does not have to be admisitered within a few hours of the race.

So the bottom line is that the detention barn stops your average cheater but it doesn't stop your really sophisticated cheater that has drugs that don't need to be administered within a few hours of the race.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

The detention barn is good because it prevents guys from giving anything to the horse within 6 hours (or however long they have to stay in the detention barn for) of the race. Most of the undetectable drugs that the cheaters give the horses were usually given to the horse a few hours before the race. So at least the test barn prevents this from happening.

Unfortunately some of the more sophisticated cheaters have stuff that is so strong that it does not have to be admisitered within a few hours of the race.

So the bottom line is that the detention barn stops your average cheater but it doesn't stop your really sophisticated cheater that has drugs that don't need to be administered within a few hours of the race.

This is a myth. If it were so then wouldn't it be fairly easy to catch guys giving these drugs? The detention barns really dont stop anything that is useful anyway. Vets just give the stuff that they would give with Lasix a little earlier and most of it is questionable in its effectivness anyway. The drugs of choice now are either given on a daily basis or are simply modified existing drugs that there are no tests for. The most effective drug of the last 20 years, EPO, is still being used in a modified form without markers. You dont need to give that anywhere near raceday.

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

This is a myth. If it were so then wouldn't it be fairly easy to catch guys giving these drugs? The detention barns really dont stop anything that is useful anyway. Vets just give the stuff that they would give with Lasix a little earlier and most of it is questionable in its effectivness anyway. The drugs of choice now are either given on a daily basis or are simply modified existing drugs that there are no tests for. The most effective drug of the last 20 years, EPO, is still being used in a modified form without markers. You dont need to give that anywhere near raceday.

i need some and mike maker had a breakthrough year because hes just good

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by hoovesupsideyourhead

i need some and mike maker had a breakthrough year because hes just good

stick to king crab

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

stick to king crab

lol

[VOL JACK]

Originally Posted by hoovesupsideyourhead

i need some and mike maker had a breakthrough year because hes just good

Yeah Mike Maker is Steph Beattie of the KY circuit.
Whats the difference between him and Kiaran McL? Except that K Mc is much better with firsters and MM is better with Turf runners they are basically the same trainer..But you never hear anyone calling the very likable KMc a CHEAT.

Hooves, stick to making your random picks.

Uh oh barking orders.

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

Originally Posted by VOL JACK

Yeah Mike Maker is Steph Beattie of the KY circuit.
Whats the difference between him and Kiaran McL? Except that K Mc is much better with firsters and MM is better with Turf runners they are basically the same trainer..But you never hear anyone calling the very likable KMc a CHEAT.

Hooves, stick to making your random picks.

wow.. yes ive heard people say karien m is a cheat but.. maker was a low perc guy with ok to **** stock.. now hes gotten very good very fast and improving horses at a rate that is not normal.ill stay way from the picks..thanks

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by VOL JACK

Yeah Mike Maker is Steph Beattie of the KY circuit.
Whats the difference between him and Kiaran McL? Except that K Mc is much better with firsters and MM is better with Turf runners they are basically the same trainer..But you never hear anyone calling the very likable KMc a CHEAT.

Hooves, stick to making your random picks.

Thats just funny. I'd put hooves picks up against anyone on the internet let alone this site..

I wish I could find the longshots he does with my "random" picks.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

This is a myth. If it were so then wouldn't it be fairly easy to catch guys giving these drugs? The detention barns really dont stop anything that is useful anyway. Vets just give the stuff that they would give with Lasix a little earlier and most of it is questionable in its effectivness anyway. The drugs of choice now are either given on a daily basis or are simply modified existing drugs that there are no tests for. The most effective drug of the last 20 years, EPO, is still being used in a modified form without markers. You dont need to give that anywhere near raceday.

They have caught guys the same day. Do you remember when they had PB under surveillance in New York and they caught him giving his horse a shot on race day?

The detention barn made it so that some guys couldn't cheat any more. There was the one big trainer who was winning in New York at about a 25% clip and after they initiated the detention barn his win percentage dropped down to about 5% and he movedd all his horses to Delaware.

I agree with you that there are obviously guys that are still cheating and there is stuff that does not need to be administered within a few hours of the race. But at least the detention barn eliminates alot of the conventional cheating that was going on. You can't milkshake a horse 2 hours before the race any more.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

They have caught guys the same day. Do you remember when they had PB under surveillance in New York and they caught him giving his horse a shot on race day?

The detention barn made it so that some guys couldn't cheat any more. There was the one big trainer who was winning in New York at about a 25% clip and after they initiated the detention barn his win percentage dropped down to about 5% and he movedd all his horses to Delaware.

I agree with you that there are obviously guys that are still cheating and there is stuff that does not need to be administered within a few hours of the race. But at least the detention barn eliminates alot of the conventional cheating that was going on. You can't milkshake a horse 2 hours before the race any more.

Since the perception is that there are lots of guys cheating, one guy who was caught 10 years ago doesnt make much of a stand. The detention barn was created so that NYRA can say it is doing something even if that something isnt not very effective. You used one example of a trainer that has left NY since the detention barn was started but he cant possibly be the only one that this has affected could it? Why hasn't it had any affect on any other of the suspicious guys?

The detention barn is a major negative if it is the primary source of a tracks efforts to curb illegal behavior because it is relatively ineffective overall and completely useless against other types like EPO or milkshaking. While NYRA is
to be commended for doing something it is simply the tip of the iceberg when trying to combat illegal behavior. What you have in theory eliminated are things that are simply given before a horse goes into the detention barn. Do you seriously think that research was done when it was determined that the best time to give Lasix is 4 hours out? It was total guesswork. Plenty of things that are given have just as much effectiveness given 6 or 8 hours out.

[MisterB]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Since the perception is that there are lots of guys cheating, one guy who was caught 10 years ago doesnt make much of a stand. The detention barn was created so that NYRA can say it is doing something even if that something isnt not very effective. You used one example of a trainer that has left NY since the detention barn was started but he cant possibly be the only one that this has affected could it? Why hasn't it had any affect on any other of the suspicious guys?

The detention barn is a major negative if it is the primary source of a tracks efforts to curb illegal behavior because it is relatively ineffective overall and completely useless against other types like EPO or milkshaking. While NYRA is
to be commended for doing something it is simply the tip of the iceberg when trying to combat illegal behavior. What you have in theory eliminated are things that are simply given before a horse goes into the detention barn. Do you seriously think that research was done when it was determined that the best time to give Lasix is 4 hours out? It was total guesswork. Plenty of things that are given have just as much effectiveness given 6 or 8 hours out.

Name names!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Stop please!!!!!!!!!!!!! Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Do you seriously think that research was done when it was determined that the best time to give Lasix is 4 hours out? It was total guesswork.

??? There's plenty of pharmacologic research about the best time to give lasix. It wasn't a guess, it's based upon furosemides' half-life.

[docicu3]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

This is a myth. If it were so then wouldn't it be fairly easy to catch guys giving these drugs? The detention barns really dont stop anything that is useful anyway. Vets just give the stuff that they would give with Lasix a little earlier and most of it is questionable in its effectivness anyway. The drugs of choice now are either given on a daily basis or are simply modified existing drugs that there are no tests for. The most effective drug of the last 20 years, EPO, is still being used in a modified form without markers. You dont need to give that anywhere near raceday.

With the life of a red blood cell being 90 days, EPO has to be given quite some time prior to race day to be of any use. Lasix or furosemide would need to be given inside that 6 hour window to increase pulmonary capacitance. I suppose some minimal effect is gained 7 hours prior but it certainly is not being used at maximal efficacy. However Epogen is being altered is almost irrelevant when you give it literally a month or two prior to race day to stimulate red cell mass, by the time they test for it after a race it's months since the horse has seen the drug

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by docicu3

With the life of a red blood cell being 90 days, EPO has to be given quite some time prior to race day to be of any use. Lasix or furosemide would need to be given inside that 6 hour window to increase pulmonary capacitance. I suppose some minimal effect is gained 7 hours prior but it certainly is not being used at maximal efficacy. However Epogen is being altered is almost irrelevant when you give it literally a month or two prior to race day to stimulate red cell mass, by the time they test for it after a race it's months since the horse has seen the drug

EPO is not used on a one time basis. A series of doses are given over a period of time.

I wasn't speaking of Lasix when tlking about outside of the 6 hour window.

[docicu3]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

EPO is not used on a one time basis. A series of doses are given over a period of time.

I wasn't speaking of Lasix when tlking about outside of the 6 hour window.

I realize that Chuck, but EPO can be given for an end point that will not occurr for as much as 60 days to peak effect because of the half life of a red cell. You could time this hemoglobin effect to peak for a race so far away from the actual running that testing is senseless because the drug would be completely gone though it's effect on bone marrow can continue with the right cofactors.

To make a point without naming names .....

When you see these magic claims where a horse is claimed but not run for almost exactly 90 days from the claim and then off the layoff instead of the horse needing a race to get back in shape these super trainers are able to induce a horse to move up staggering numbers at ages your not supposed to improve.

At post time when these horses go off at odds that seem to expect they'll win though the form says they won't...they win!...I know you know this is exactly what happens. Now that's an EPO effect, the same damn drug I give dialysis and cancer patients every day.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

Did you read her post or are you hitting the bottle tonight?

Thank you! Riot.. that post made my head hurt

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

Did you read her post or are you hitting the bottle tonight?

So you couldn't understand the point that the concept of many drugs constantly being newly created by cheating trainers (FatMan thinks so, too), keeping one step ahead of the testers, is mostly fan imagination, rather than reality.