Cap and Trade vote on Friday

[Antitrust32]

Here's the deal. Can we afford this crap and trade program? Obama says "it will cost the average American the cost of a postage stamp per day". Postage stamps are 44 cents. There are 365 days in the year. That equals $160 per year per individual. so if you have a family of four its $640 per year. The republicans say it will cost the average family $3100 per year. My electric company said it will cost me at LEAST $50 per month.. which is at $600 per year... and I'm just one person so thats more than $160.

I dont believe anyone... i really dont believe the White house's numbers, because everytime they say something it going to cost x amount.. it ends up costing y amount (like the health insurance plan). I dont believe the Republicans either because I have no reason to believe them. So I'm going to assume that $600 is the least its going to cost me and maybe $1500 is the most its going to cost me. I DONT HAVE THAT EXTRA MONEY FOR SOMETHING THAT WE ARENT PREPARED AS A COUNTRY TO CHANGE.

Thats what it boils down to with me. I dont think I'm the only one in this boat. Can our country afford this right now? I say no.

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

Here's the deal. Can we afford this crap and trade program? Obama says "it will cost the average American the cost of a postage stamp per day". Postage stamps are 44 cents. There are 365 days in the year. That equals $160 per year per individual. so if you have a family of four its $640 per year. The republicans say it will cost the average family $3100 per year. My electric company said it will cost me at LEAST $50 per month.. which is at $600 per year... and I'm just one person so thats more than $160.

I dont believe anyone... i really dont believe the White house's numbers, because everytime they say something it going to cost x amount.. it ends up costing y amount (like the health insurance plan). I dont believe the Republicans either because I have no reason to believe them. So I'm going to assume that $600 is the least its going to cost me and maybe $1500 is the most its going to cost me. I DONT HAVE THAT EXTRA MONEY FOR SOMETHING THAT WE ARENT PREPARED AS A COUNTRY TO CHANGE.

Thats what it boils down to with me. I dont think I'm the only one in this boat. Can our country afford this right now? I say no.

As I stated in an earlier post, I think this adminstration is ready to move the country to alternative energy sources now. It will cost. But in the long run this administration thinks it is the forward looking way to go.

I dont think it is just about CO2 emissions. I personally think it is part of a larger effort to get us away importing oil, polluting with Coal burning. Part of the interim solution imo has to be nuclear power. I dont know how the plans for that are going.

I have no opinion on the timing. I just dont know enough.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by pgardn

As I stated in an earlier post, I think this adminstration is ready to move the country to alternative energy sources now. It will cost. But in the long run this administration thinks it is the forward looking way to go.

I dont think it is just about CO2 emissions. I personally think it is part of a larger effort to get us away importing oil, polluting with Coal burning. Part of the interim solution imo has to be nuclear power. I dont know how the plans for that are going.

I have no opinion on the timing. I just dont know enough.

Do you have an extra $600-$1500 per year to fund this? (dont need to answer obviously). I dont, and I'm not even as bad off as like 30% or more of the people out there... who all still need to use electricity. I think the timing is horrible, especially with 10% unemployment looming. But it will NOT pass through the senate... that is almost a gauruntee... shoot it barely got by the house and they love to pass everything. The bill spells political doom for the people who vote for it, and people are too worried about their careers as politicians.


Also, I'd like to know what kind of electricity we are going to be using and how we are going to get it. Are we going to fill the entire state of texas with wind turbine's?

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

Also, I'd like to know what kind of electricity we are going to be using and how we are going to get it. Are we going to fill the entire state of texas with wind turbine's?

We did with oil rigs. They are everywhere. I cannot look out into the Gulf without seeing multiple rigs. But I digress...

Imo we have to make a switch from the present day coal burning which the majority of our electrical energy comes from. We have plenty of Coal. It is just ghastly stuff to deal with when you burn it.

imo
1. Cleaner burning Coal plants (expensive)
2. Nukes (expensive to begin with but cleaner and make up for expense)
3. Wind (15% of my power currently, very clean, but infant industry)
4. Solar (infancy and tougher than wind)
5. They have talked about using natural gas, oil shales in certain types of plants because it would be cleaner.
6. Geothermal, tidal power could be possible in rare places.

BTW
Wind power can work in lots more places that people think.
Germany has taken enormous advantage of wind, and this
country does not have near the climate we have for its use.

I have a special prejudice against bad air. San Antonio is on the verge
of losing Federal funds because our air has gotten so bad. Use to be
able to run without watching the weather to see if its safe. Cannot
even see the Hill Country clearly any more. We have two very large
Coal Burning facilities in addition to some nuke (south east of SA) and wind.
And we supposeldy burn some of the cleanest coal from Wyoming.

[geeker2]

You are going to see more modern combined cycle plants with 55% plus efficiency - they will start to replace the less efficient coal plant (lower 30% efficiency).

The US natural gas reserves are very high with yet untapped wells. With the more efficient plants these CC Plants will be dispatched before the less efficient coal plants. The issue is still the unknown pricing of CO2 fees and the ultimate regulation levels.

Renewables are great - but their ability to be dispatched is limited which means additional reserves of "fast start" will be required in tandem. The other issue with Renewables is the necessary infrastructure of transmission and distribution investment still required.

What does this all mean to us?

Expect higher residential electricity cost.....

Originally Posted by geeker2

.

What does this all mean to us?

Expect higher residential electricity cost.....

No doubt.
It was coming anyway.
The timing may not be good
as antitrust noted.

It is hot as hell here. I cannot keep anything in my yard
alive except trees that luckily shade my house from the
south and west excessively well. My neighbor who has
no trees bill is 3X as high and the house has smaller sq. ft
to cool. Amazing what trees can do.

Did I state that it is hot as hell here?

weather.JPG

oh please god let it rain.

note it is just to the north of pgardn.
This is as close as real rain has been in a while.
When it rains does it hurt or is it audible?
I have no memory of rain.
Notice that three posters on this board from the
great state of texas are on approximately the same
latitude.

[SOREHOOF]

You live in Texas. It's supposed to be hot.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

Here's the deal. Can we afford this crap and trade program? Obama says "it will cost the average American the cost of a postage stamp per day". Postage stamps are 44 cents. There are 365 days in the year. That equals $160 per year per individual. so if you have a family of four its $640 per year. The republicans say it will cost the average family $3100 per year. My electric company said it will cost me at LEAST $50 per month.. which is at $600 per year... and I'm just one person so thats more than $160.

I dont believe anyone... i really dont believe the White house's numbers, because everytime they say something it going to cost x amount.. it ends up costing y amount (like the health insurance plan). I dont believe the Republicans either because I have no reason to believe them. So I'm going to assume that $600 is the least its going to cost me and maybe $1500 is the most its going to cost me. I DONT HAVE THAT EXTRA MONEY FOR SOMETHING THAT WE ARENT PREPARED AS A COUNTRY TO CHANGE.

Thats what it boils down to with me. I dont think I'm the only one in this boat. Can our country afford this right now? I say no.

you need to be careful about anything obama says. he said no middle class tax increase, ran ads and bashed mccain for suggesting a tax on employee health benefits, and now is considering doing that very thing-which means there would be a tax increase.

yeah, change we can believe in. he's just another lying, talking out of both sides of his mouth politician.

[SOREHOOF]

Originally Posted by Danzig

you need to be careful about anything obama says. he said no middle class tax increase, ran ads and bashed mccain for suggesting a tax on employee health benefits, and now is considering doing that very thing-which means there would be a tax increase.

yeah, change we can believe in. he's just another lying, talking out of both sides of his mouth politician.

Our Liar-in-Chief is taking Chaves' side in the Honduran Coup. He took the Ayatollah's side in Iran. I view with total skepticism anything he says or does. Any crisis is a good crisis if it advances his agenda of bankrupting America for our own good. How much will a couple of these electric cars that "America really wants" increase the electric bill? Obama Motors......change you can believe in.

[hi_im_god]

Originally Posted by SOREHOOF

Our Liar-in-Chief is taking Chaves' side in the Honduran Coup. He took the Ayatollah's side in Iran. I view with total skepticism anything he says or does. Any crisis is a good crisis if it advances his agenda of bankrupting America for our own good. How much will a couple of these electric cars that "America really wants" increase the electric bill? Obama Motors......change you can believe in.

this is what happens when you start defending torture.

lacking principals outside of what's expedient right now, the right has now slipped so far down the slope that opposing a military coup of a democratically elected government is a bad thing.

on one hand you have a complete lack of backbone on large principals that matter. on the other an inflexible rigidity on preposterous personal morality even you can't live up to.

i look forward to your coup deposing obama and establishing the christian republic of jesusstan.

[GBBob]

Originally Posted by SOREHOOF

Our Liar-in-Chief is taking Chaves' side in the Honduran Coup. He took the Ayatollah's side in Iran. I view with total skepticism anything he says or does. Any crisis is a good crisis if it advances his agenda of bankrupting America for our own good. How much will a couple of these electric cars that "America really wants" increase the electric bill? Obama Motors......change you can believe in.

Why?..Because you are not a Liberal..or because you hate everything that Obama advances?...or both? Either way, you are a poster child for why we shouldn't elect anyone you vote for..

I love good arguements with conservatives, but please say something that makes sense..Don't make me resort to random right wing Nancy Reagan insults..as easy as they might be.

weather.JPG

Look at this compared to the other map.
No rain...
I blame it on conservatives.
They changed the weather just today.
I think Cheney being so mean plays an integral role.

It took years of research to come up with this.

[GBBob]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Attachment 1300

Look at this compared to the other map.
No rain...
I blame it on conservatives.
They changed the weather just today.
I think Cheney being so mean plays an integral role.

It took years of research to come up with this.

Dude..It's going to hit 59 in Chicago tonight..there ain't no dag gum global warmin..f*ck ya'...DRILL BABY DRILL...Whooo...Hoo

Originally Posted by GBBob

DRILL BABY DRILL...Whooo...Hoo

One of the most eloquent Republican moments.
Then it got worse.

McCain was like, "frkkn morons shut up your are frkkn killn me"
He said it a bit nicer.

[geeker2]

Originally Posted by GBBob

Why?..Because you are not a Liberal..or because you hate everything that Obama advances?...or both? Either way, you are a poster child for why we shouldn't elect anyone you vote for..

I love good arguements with conservatives, but please say something that makes sense..Don't make me resort to random right wing Nancy Reagan insults..as easy as they might be.

"Just say no to DrugS"

[SOREHOOF]

Originally Posted by GBBob

Why?..Because you are not a Liberal..or because you hate everything that Obama advances?...or both? Either way, you are a poster child for why we shouldn't elect anyone you vote for..

I love good arguements with conservatives, but please say something that makes sense..Don't make me resort to random right wing Nancy Reagan insults..as easy as they might be.

I just know going into debt this far is wrong. I freaked when Bush did the TARP thing. When the new administration spent a TRILLION before it touched the 350 BILLION Bush left the new administration to start out with. I became very concerned. Spending is not the answer. I was a lifelong Democrat until last year. Still fairly liberal. Sometimes I feel like I'm the one being tortured. I only hate "almost" everything Obama advances. I hate the Congress more. We're all in this together brother. I'd vote for almost anyone who isn't already in there. If you like what's going on , then great, but I'll be voting for change.

[JJP]

Unfortunately, it will pass in the Senate. Previously, it wouldn't have, but the coal industry, is apparently in Barack's back pocket. Since the coal companies are getting a near pass, there's nothing to stop the Democrats in coal mining states to vote for it. So who's getting screwed? The natural gas companies are taking it big time. Ironically, which is a far cleaner source of energy, coal or nat gas? That answer is obvious......so much for the "green" agenda.

This will be a huge regressive tax. Let's see what the poor and lower class who voted for Obama have to say after their energy bills triple or quadruple. It won't be pretty.

[GBBob]

Originally Posted by JJP

Unfortunately, it will pass in the Senate. Previously, it wouldn't have, but the coal industry, is apparently in Barack's back pocket. Since the coal companies are getting a near pass, there's nothing to stop the Democrats in coal mining states to vote for it. So who's getting screwed? The natural gas companies are taking it big time. Ironically, which is a far cleaner source of energy, coal or nat gas? That answer is obvious......so much for the "green" agenda.

This will be a huge regressive tax. Let's see what the poor and lower class who voted for Obama have to say after their energy bills triple or quadruple. It won't be pretty.

So my $200 a month winter gas bill is going to $800??..really?..I don't think so