Cap and Trade vote on Friday

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Would you please read my quote again.

The second part is exactly opposite of what Obama's adm. has posited.
The idea is that oil going to levels that are high will FORCE us to use alternative sources (because they are now competitive) which will cause EXACTLY the opposite of what you posted. A painful oil punch will FORCE a switch.

THIS IS WHAT I BELIEVE THE ADMISTRATION BELIEVES.
GET OFF THE OIL.

did i yell?

Do you think our reliance on oil importation is a problem?

How is wind or solar energy going to power our cars? You are confusing the issues.

Solar and wind energy are not good large scale sources because it costs way too much to produce. The main reason being that there are only a few areas of the country that have a climate conducive to those alternates and it will cost a fortune to get the energy created to the other areas.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

1. How is wind or solar energy going to power our cars? You are confusing the issues.

2. Solar and wind energy are not good large scale sources because it costs way too much to produce. The main reason being that there are only a few areas of the country that have a climate conducive to those alternates and it will cost a fortune to get the energy created to the other areas.

1. Solar and wind power produce electricity.
Electricity is a source of energy.
Hybrid cars can be charged by electricity.

Do we need to go further?
And who is confusing the issues?

2. No it does not cost way too much to produce if other sources
become more expensive. It costs way too much now because we
buy mostly from foreign companies and we have no infrastructure
set up like we do for oil.

The energy created will cost to move to begin with. Once a grid is set up
which will be expensive, it will not be.


Nuclear energy is clearly a transitional option. You did not mention Nuclear.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by pgardn

1. Solar and wind power produce electricity.
Electricity is a source of energy.
Hybrid cars can be charged by electricity.

Do we need to go further?
And who is confusing the issues?

2. No it does not cost way too much to produce if other sources
become more expensive. It costs way too much now because we
buy mostly from foreign companies and we have no infrastructure
set up like we do for oil.

The energy created will cost to move to begin with. Once a grid is set up
which will be expensive, it will not be.


Nuclear energy is clearly a transitional option. You did not mention Nuclear.

You honestly think that we can go to electric cars? Not hybrids which are gas cars with little value on highways. Oil is not widely used a an energy source outside of gasoline. I am hardly confusing the issues. You are simply thinking far too simplistically.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

You honestly think that we can go to electric cars? Not hybrids which are gas cars with little value on highways. Oil is not widely used a an energy source outside of gasoline. I am hardly confusing the issues. You are simply thinking far too simplistically.

I am thinking simplistically?
You did not even see the link between solar
and wind and cars?

Of course I am thinking hybrids right now.
Because we as a country have not put near
enough research into small light batteries.

I cannot possible say all electric cars would work right
now because of the above.
I think about what needs to happen in the near future.

This is the really interesting thing about conservatives:
On monetary policy, they have a tendency to look long term.
The debt we are putting ourselves into worry them because
of future concerns... my children will inherit this debt and such.

But... when it comes to energy. The shortsightedness is incredible.
I dont get it. Can you explain this? Hardly any research (relative to other expenditures) into batteries.
Yet a huge amount of innovation on how to exploit a resourse (oil)
that is an end game. All these new ways to drill and methods to
detect oil... its bizarre.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by pgardn

I am thinking simplistically?
You did not even see the link between solar
and wind and cars?

Of course I am thinking hybrids right now.
Because we as a country have not put near
enough research into small light batteries.

I cannot possible say all electric cars would work right
now because of the above.
I think about what needs to happen in the near future.

This is the really interesting thing about conservatives:
On monetary policy, they have a tendency to look long term.
The debt we are putting ourselves into worry them because
of future concerns... my children will inherit this debt and such.

But... when it comes to energy. The shortsightedness is incredible.
I dont get it. Can you explain this? Hardly any research (relative to other expenditures) into batteries.
Yet a huge amount of innovation on how to exploit a resourse (oil)
that is an end game. All these new ways to drill and methods to
detect oil... its bizarre.

You are assuming that this big break through in batteries will come soon. Why i dont know. Certainly there will be trillions of dollars to be made for the company that makes the breakthrough so it is hard to believe that there isnt tons of research being done already. I prefer to not make assumptions of things that we cannot know of (like break through in technology) but rather of things that we do know of (like monetary policy) Assuming that the world can just change over to electric cars based upon a discovery that hasnt happened yet is not simplistic. You are right. It is insane.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

You are assuming that this big break through in batteries will come soon. Why i dont know. Certainly there will be trillions of dollars to be made for the company that makes the breakthrough so it is hard to believe that there isnt tons of research being done already. I prefer to not make assumptions of things that we cannot know of (like break through in technology) but rather of things that we do know of (like monetary policy) Assuming that the world can just change over to electric cars based upon a discovery that hasnt happened yet is not simplistic. You are right. It is insane.

Stunningly shortsighted again.

Basic research into storing electrical energy is in its infancy.
In our country, basic research is guided by the government and
the public sector watches and siezes upon finds that can make
money. Do you not get this? How do you think the majority of
the drugs that are on the market got started? You think some
company just picks up a basic fact out of the air
and starts from scratch without BASIC RESEARCH?
And the idea that storing electrical energy efficiently can only
be applied to cars (or this is what you attribute my thoughts to)
is again terribly simplistic or disingenous.

You basically have no idea how the free market plays a major
role in innovation. How mistakes in basic research and in R and D
within companies leads to innovation.

Does Conservative automatically disqualify one from believing in
innovation since that would not be a conservative endeavour?

Further.
Have you ever read a SCIENCE article that attempts to point out
its own shortfalls? THis is what SCIENCE does. 'Here is what we think
we know, and here is why we are skeptical about our own conclusions.'

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Stunningly shortsighted again.

Basic research into storing electrical energy is in its infancy.
In our country, basic research is guided by the government and
the public sector watches and siezes upon finds that can make
money. Do you not get this? How do you think the majority of
the drugs that are on the market got started? You think some
company just picks up a basic fact out of the air
and starts from scratch without BASIC RESEARCH?
And the idea that storing electrical energy efficiently can only
be applied to cars (or this is what you attribute my thoughts to)
is again terribly simplistic or disingenous.

You basically have no idea how the free market plays a major
role in innovation. How mistakes in basic research and in R and D
within companies leads to innovation.

Does Conservative automatically disqualify one from believing in
innovation since that would not be a conservative endeavour?

Further.
Have you ever read a SCIENCE article that attempts to point out
its own shortfalls? THis is what SCIENCE does. 'Here is what we think
we know, and here is why we are skeptical about our own conclusions.'

For innovation to actually occur the scientific breakthroughs must be real, not hypothetical. So what if these battery storage breakthroughs never come? Then what? It has nothing to do with being shortsighted. Everybody wants a better way. But some of us can wait till it is actually possible.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by pgardn

I am thinking simplistically?
You did not even see the link between solar
and wind and cars?

Haven't you noticed that the people who do not "believe" man can affect the worlds climate are those that do not have a strong scientific education or work daily in a scientific field?

When you stop banging your head against a brick wall, it feels pretty good