shaq to the Cavs

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Dont waste your time KG. Chuck doesnt quite get the whole defensive rotation thing. If someone can't grasp that a great player creates better shots for teammates simply by being on the court...well... 10 paragraphs isnt going to help. Heck, i will give it a another shot.

The first rule of defense is to stop the ball. If Lebron is driving to the hole, defenders must converge to stop the ball. If he has beaten his man and two guys converage, that leaves two guys to cover four. If the offense is spaced properly, a spot up jump shooter will have an eternity to shoot. This is basketball 101.

Taking it a step further, defenses concede certain shots and parts of the floor to a player. The better the player, the fewer things can be conceded and the more stress it puts on the defense and the rotation. When jordan played, Detroit actually set up the famed "jordan rules" designed to specifically stop HIM. If that was the case, weren't his teammates getting cleaner looks than if he wasnt on the floor?

This is basic stuff. I am actually surprised that we are even discussing this. Its even dumber than going over the merits of delonte west.

So when Lebron drives to the basket more people converge on him than other players? last time I looked basketball was still 5 on 5. Don't ALL NBA teams have guys that drive to the basket which would leave the perimeter players open? So if Vince Carter goes to the basket the players on the Nets are less open than when Lebron or Kobe drives? This is so stupid that it is silly. Do guys on teams other than Miami, LA and Cleveland take three under more duress than those teams? Since when does open for a three pointer in Cleveland become easier than open for a three pointer in Minnesota?

The "Jordan rules" were to knock Jordan down and play overly physical with him to discourage him from driving. That had zero to do with open teammates. The better the player the MORE things are conceded. teams know that the great players are going to get their points. Most NBA teams WANT Kobe to shoot more and get his teammates out of the flow of the game.

Are Kobe, Wade and LeBron the only players in the NBA to drive to the basket and create open shots? Shouldn't teams with great distributors at the point say the same thing? Cant you say that bad teams should shoot better because the opponents aren't playing as hard against them? In the end guys make or miss three pointers because of thier own abilities and health situation. Teams dont commit more players to "cover" great players unless it is a case like the year SA played Cleveland in the finals and they simply dared the rest of the Cavs to beat them by picket fencing against LeBron on the wings.

The theory that a player should shoot a better three point % because they are on the same court with a great player is absurd.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The "Jordan rules" were to knock Jordan down and play overly physical with him to discourage him from driving. That had zero to do with open teammates. .

This post here communicates a lack of understanding for what the "jordan rules" were. Sure, part of the rules were to be physical with him and to "knock him on his ass" any time he went by someone. But, mainly, it was a set of rules of how to defend against specifically HIM on certain parts of the floor. Here is an excerpt in Chuck Daly's own words:

"If Michael was at the point, we forced him left and doubled him. If he was on the left wing, we went immediately to a double team from the top. If he was on the right wing, we went to a slow double team. He could hurt you equally from either wing -- hell, he could hurt you from the hot-dog stand -- but we just wanted to vary the look. And if he was on the box, we doubled with a big guy.


Hmmmm. Seems to me Michael was double a lot in the perimeter which YOU said doesnt happen in the NBA. And if he was doubled, wouldnt the guy doubling be leaving a man open?

LOL. Why can't you just admit, just once, maybe you made a mistake?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

This post here communicates a lack of understanding for what the "jordan rules" were. Sure, part of the rules were to be physical with him and to "knock him on his ass" any time he went by someone. But, mainly, it was a set of rules of how to defend against specifically HIM on certain parts of the floor. Here is an excerpt in Chuck Daly's own words:

"If Michael was at the point, we forced him left and doubled him. If he was on the left wing, we went immediately to a double team from the top. If he was on the right wing, we went to a slow double team. He could hurt you equally from either wing -- hell, he could hurt you from the hot-dog stand -- but we just wanted to vary the look. And if he was on the box, we doubled with a big guy.


Hmmmm. Seems to me Michael was double a lot in the perimeter which YOU said doesnt happen in the NBA. And if he was doubled, wouldnt the guy doubling be leaving a man open?

LOL. Why can't you just admit, just once, maybe you made a mistake?

Please stop. The theory that a player should shoot three pointers at a higher % when on the court with great player is rubbish. Open is open. What % of three point shots taken are contested shots? The vast majority are open looks regardless of teams or players. We arent talking about drawing a defense away for layups. There is no doubt that a guy going to the basket can create open lanes and easy shots. But the three point line doesnt move and isnt an easier shot regardless of arena or teammates.

[horseofcourse]

Ilgauskas has one more year left. He's retiring after this year. They will absolutely pay him to back up Shaq and play 20 minutes a game. It means nothing to them. This upcoming year is it for them. They don't have to win the championship...but I think they have to get to the finals and make a good showing to absolutely ensure what's his name stays.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by horseofcourse

Ilgauskas has one more year left. He's retiring after this year. They will absolutely pay him to back up Shaq and play 20 minutes a game. It means nothing to them. This upcoming year is it for them. They don't have to win the championship...but I think they have to get to the finals and make a good showing to absolutely ensure what's his name stays.

The point is rather moot. They will pay ilguaskas because they have no choice but to pay him. but anyone that thinks that an NBA team would pay a guy 10 million for 20 minutes a game BY CHOICE simply has no understanding of the finances of the game. The only guy that would do that is Isaiah.

At this point, Z is a bad contract. At ten million, if he wasnt, there would be no need for a 38 year old shaq.

[horseofcourse]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

The point is rather moot. They will pay ilguaskas because they have no choice but to pay him. but anyone that thinks that an NBA team would pay a guy 10 million for 20 minutes a game BY CHOICE simply has no understanding of the finances of the game. The only guy that would do that is Isaiah.

At this point, Z is a bad contract. At ten million, if he wasnt, there would be no need for a 38 year old shaq.

AGain, you're arguing about nothing as you always accuse me of doing. They want to win it all next year and nothing less than a finals appearance. As Cannon said, money is not a consideration at all this year. They'll need him next year...mainly for regular season minutes. As a team's number two center, he'll be the best in the league...as a number 1 center not so much, with his athletic challenges.

Do you have any understanding of the NBA situation in Cleveland right now?? Cannon said it perfectly. They become a non-entity if what's his name leaves.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by horseofcourse

AGain, you're arguing about nothing as you always accuse me of doing. They want to win it all next year and nothing less than a finals appearance. As Cannon said, money is not a consideration at all this year. They'll need him next year...mainly for regular season minutes. As a team's number two center, he'll be the best in the league...as a number 1 center not so much, with his athletic challenges.

Do you have any understanding of the NBA situation in Cleveland right now?? Cannon said it perfectly. They become a non-entity if what's his name leaves.

Yawn....

Do you think Z's agent doesnt have a grasp on this situation? Z has a player option...right now. He can opt out.

If he was in a position where Cleveland really wanted to keep him, why wouldnt he just opt out and force cleveland to either pay him more or extend his contract?

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Please stop. The theory that a player should shoot three pointers at a higher % when on the court with great player is rubbish. Open is open. What % of three point shots taken are contested shots? The vast majority are open looks regardless of teams or players. We arent talking about drawing a defense away for layups. There is no doubt that a guy going to the basket can create open lanes and easy shots. But the three point line doesnt move and isnt an easier shot regardless of arena or teammates.

LOL. you said nothing to disprove the point. All you did was reiterate your baseless rubbish.

Here is a quote from SI from Michael Jordan himself in regards to the Jordan rules:

"Sometimes I wish I could be my teammates looking at that defense," says Jordan. "It must be nice. But it isn't nice for me."

Jordan took the attention of the defense. If they double, someone is open. You said earlier in the thread teams don't double on the perimeter in the NBA. What gives? Are you going back on that now?

If a team has to double one man, a player is going to be more open than if that defense didnt have to double. Im sorry you dont/cant grasp this basic fact.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

LOL. you said nothing to disprove the point. All you did was reiterate your baseless rubbish.

Here is a quote from SI from Michael Jordan himself in regards to the Jordan rules:

"Sometimes I wish I could be my teammates looking at that defense," says Jordan. "It must be nice. But it isn't nice for me."

Jordan took the attention of the defense. If they double, someone is open. You said earlier in the thread teams don't double on the perimeter in the NBA. What gives? Are you going back on that now?

If a team has to double one man, a player is going to be more open than if that defense didnt have to double. Im sorry you dont/cant grasp this basic fact.

That was 20 years ago. Things and rules change. How often were Wade and LeBron and Kobe and Carmello doubled during the playoffs? When a guy drives to the basket and help comes, that does not count as a double. As I stated before, three points shots are the same regardless of where they are taken and who they are taken by. They arent easier or harder because of other players. They are 23' 9" regardless.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

That was 20 years ago. Things and rules change. How often were Wade and LeBron and Kobe and Carmello doubled during the playoffs? When a guy drives to the basket and help comes, that does not count as a double. As I stated before, three points shots are the same regardless of where they are taken and who they are taken by. They arent easier or harder because of other players. They are 23' 9" regardless.

What a weak cop out. Regardless if it was 20 years ago or not, ONE player and the attention he receieved created open shots for his teammates. It is an irrefutible fact.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

What a weak cop out. Regardless if it was 20 years ago or not, ONE player and the attention he receieved created open shots for his teammates. It is an irrefutible fact.

Are you kidding? This is what you are hanging your hat on? We are talking about THREE POINT SHOTS!!!! The Three point line is the same distance away from the basket regardless of WHO throws you the ball. Why is THAT so hard to grasp? There is no logic that says that a 24 foot shot is any easier if you are "more" open. It is still a 24 foot shot. If i am doubled teamed and pass to a cutting teammate for a layup, that is one thing. But if I pass to a guy behind the three point line the shot is equally as challenging as if the guy simply creates his own three point shot or has a pick run for him to get a three point shot.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

If a team has to double one man, a player is going to be more open than if that defense didnt have to double. Im sorry you dont/cant grasp this basic fact.

More open? That takes the cake. So the defensive pressure is 10 feet away instead of 7?