shaq to the Cavs

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The vast majority of three pointers taken are undefended regardless of the team, composition of the team or any other factor. Shooting 40% is shooting 40%, period.

Not even close to true. Orlando didn't get anywhere close to the same kinds of shots against the Lakers over the last three games as they got in the first two or against Cleveland. A lot of their shots were contested and those same 40% shooters couldn't shoot as well. If you don't think that playing with a guy like Kobe or Wade or James translates to better shots and more open looks, you see the game way different than most people. Anyone's percentage is going to go up playing with those guys.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Not even close to true. Orlando didn't get anywhere close to the same kinds of shots against the Lakers over the last three games as they got in the first two or against Cleveland. A lot of their shots were contested and those same 40% shooters couldn't shoot as well. If you don't think that playing with a guy like Kobe or Wade or James translates to better shots and more open looks, you see the game way different than most people. Anyone's percentage is going to go up playing with those guys.

That just isnt true. Kobe and Wade are both slashers who rarely dish out to the three point line. No one doubles perimeter players in the NBA. it is just a false argument that a player should shoot better because they are playing with a great scorer. it makes no sense. If you said that they played with a top post player, where there are doubles and people collapsing off the perimeter it may be palatable. If you want to say that Williams three point shooting improvement was because of Lebron, why did his overall shooting percentage drop? because shooting %'s are effected by tons of factors outside of the 4 other players on the court.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

That just isnt true. Kobe and Wade are both slashers who rarely dish out to the three point line. No one doubles perimeter players in the NBA. it is just a false argument that a player should shoot better because they are playing with a great scorer. it makes no sense. If you said that they played with a top post player, where there are doubles and people collapsing off the perimeter it may be palatable. If you want to say that Williams three point shooting improvement was because of Lebron, why did his overall shooting percentage drop? because shooting %'s are effected by tons of factors outside of the 4 other players on the court.

They dish out all the time. Are you kidding me? You really don't think they get double-teamed? Everytime they drive there are 2-3 guys around them. Sasha Vujacic owes his career to Kobe. How do you think Fisher and Ariza end up so wide open all the time? Because of the attention that Kobe gets. It's not a traditional double in the sense that when he gets it there are two on him right away. The reason for that is because he shoots a lot of jumpers. But when he makes moves to the basket, he's usually tripled.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

They dish out all the time. Are you kidding me? You really don't think they get double-teamed? Everytime they drive there are 2-3 guys around them. Sasha Vujacic owes his career to Kobe. How do you think Fisher and Ariza end up so wide open all the time? Because of the attention that Kobe gets. It's not a traditional double in the sense that when he gets it there are two on him right away. The reason for that is because he shoots a lot of jumpers. But when he makes moves to the basket, he's usually tripled.

Yeah for guys that dish to open shooters all the time and play 40 mins a game 4 assists is a bit weak no? You dont think that Gasol and odom have something to do with those guys being "open"?

I feel Shaq will disappear in Cleveland. He is getting older and injuries will be the end of him soon.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

They dish out all the time. Are you kidding me? You really don't think they get double-teamed? Everytime they drive there are 2-3 guys around them. Sasha Vujacic owes his career to Kobe. How do you think Fisher and Ariza end up so wide open all the time? Because of the attention that Kobe gets. It's not a traditional double in the sense that when he gets it there are two on him right away. The reason for that is because he shoots a lot of jumpers. But when he makes moves to the basket, he's usually tripled.

Dont waste your time KG. Chuck doesnt quite get the whole defensive rotation thing. If someone can't grasp that a great player creates better shots for teammates simply by being on the court...well... 10 paragraphs isnt going to help. Heck, i will give it a another shot.

The first rule of defense is to stop the ball. If Lebron is driving to the hole, defenders must converge to stop the ball. If he has beaten his man and two guys converage, that leaves two guys to cover four. If the offense is spaced properly, a spot up jump shooter will have an eternity to shoot. This is basketball 101.

Taking it a step further, defenses concede certain shots and parts of the floor to a player. The better the player, the fewer things can be conceded and the more stress it puts on the defense and the rotation. When jordan played, Detroit actually set up the famed "jordan rules" designed to specifically stop HIM. If that was the case, weren't his teammates getting cleaner looks than if he wasnt on the floor?

This is basic stuff. I am actually surprised that we are even discussing this. Its even dumber than going over the merits of delonte west.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Dont waste your time KG. Chuck doesnt quite get the whole defensive rotation thing. If someone can't grasp that a great player creates better shots for teammates simply by being on the court...well... 10 paragraphs isnt going to help. Heck, i will give it a another shot.

The first rule of defense is to stop the ball. If Lebron is driving to the hole, defenders must converge to stop the ball. If he has beaten his man and two guys converage, that leaves two guys to cover four. If the offense is spaced properly, a spot up jump shooter will have an eternity to shoot. This is basketball 101.

Taking it a step further, defenses concede certain shots and parts of the floor to a player. The better the player, the fewer things can be conceded and the more stress it puts on the defense and the rotation. When jordan played, Detroit actually set up the famed "jordan rules" designed to specifically stop HIM. If that was the case, weren't his teammates getting cleaner looks than if he wasnt on the floor?

This is basic stuff. I am actually surprised that we are even discussing this. Its even dumber than going over the merits of delonte west.

So when Lebron drives to the basket more people converge on him than other players? last time I looked basketball was still 5 on 5. Don't ALL NBA teams have guys that drive to the basket which would leave the perimeter players open? So if Vince Carter goes to the basket the players on the Nets are less open than when Lebron or Kobe drives? This is so stupid that it is silly. Do guys on teams other than Miami, LA and Cleveland take three under more duress than those teams? Since when does open for a three pointer in Cleveland become easier than open for a three pointer in Minnesota?

The "Jordan rules" were to knock Jordan down and play overly physical with him to discourage him from driving. That had zero to do with open teammates. The better the player the MORE things are conceded. teams know that the great players are going to get their points. Most NBA teams WANT Kobe to shoot more and get his teammates out of the flow of the game.

Are Kobe, Wade and LeBron the only players in the NBA to drive to the basket and create open shots? Shouldn't teams with great distributors at the point say the same thing? Cant you say that bad teams should shoot better because the opponents aren't playing as hard against them? In the end guys make or miss three pointers because of thier own abilities and health situation. Teams dont commit more players to "cover" great players unless it is a case like the year SA played Cleveland in the finals and they simply dared the rest of the Cavs to beat them by picket fencing against LeBron on the wings.

The theory that a player should shoot a better three point % because they are on the same court with a great player is absurd.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The "Jordan rules" were to knock Jordan down and play overly physical with him to discourage him from driving. That had zero to do with open teammates. .

This post here communicates a lack of understanding for what the "jordan rules" were. Sure, part of the rules were to be physical with him and to "knock him on his ass" any time he went by someone. But, mainly, it was a set of rules of how to defend against specifically HIM on certain parts of the floor. Here is an excerpt in Chuck Daly's own words:

"If Michael was at the point, we forced him left and doubled him. If he was on the left wing, we went immediately to a double team from the top. If he was on the right wing, we went to a slow double team. He could hurt you equally from either wing -- hell, he could hurt you from the hot-dog stand -- but we just wanted to vary the look. And if he was on the box, we doubled with a big guy.


Hmmmm. Seems to me Michael was double a lot in the perimeter which YOU said doesnt happen in the NBA. And if he was doubled, wouldnt the guy doubling be leaving a man open?

LOL. Why can't you just admit, just once, maybe you made a mistake?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

This post here communicates a lack of understanding for what the "jordan rules" were. Sure, part of the rules were to be physical with him and to "knock him on his ass" any time he went by someone. But, mainly, it was a set of rules of how to defend against specifically HIM on certain parts of the floor. Here is an excerpt in Chuck Daly's own words:

"If Michael was at the point, we forced him left and doubled him. If he was on the left wing, we went immediately to a double team from the top. If he was on the right wing, we went to a slow double team. He could hurt you equally from either wing -- hell, he could hurt you from the hot-dog stand -- but we just wanted to vary the look. And if he was on the box, we doubled with a big guy.


Hmmmm. Seems to me Michael was double a lot in the perimeter which YOU said doesnt happen in the NBA. And if he was doubled, wouldnt the guy doubling be leaving a man open?

LOL. Why can't you just admit, just once, maybe you made a mistake?

Please stop. The theory that a player should shoot three pointers at a higher % when on the court with great player is rubbish. Open is open. What % of three point shots taken are contested shots? The vast majority are open looks regardless of teams or players. We arent talking about drawing a defense away for layups. There is no doubt that a guy going to the basket can create open lanes and easy shots. But the three point line doesnt move and isnt an easier shot regardless of arena or teammates.

[horseofcourse]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

This is basic stuff. I am actually surprised that we are even discussing this. Its even dumber than going over the merits of delonte west.

well dala. for a cleveland fan the merits of delonte west are mainly that he isn't Larry Hughes, Eric Snow, Daniel Gibson, Jeff Mcinnis, Sasha Pavlovic, Luke Jackson. They became a much better team with the acquisition of him late last year. He's a good player. He plays good defense and has some offensive skill. Those are his merits. It is not that difficult. It's pretty much basketball 101 isn't it?? The reason the Cavs went from a 45-50 regular season team to a 66 win team this year was because they played two NBA caliber guards for the first time since they got LeBron. The season failed because they lost to Orlando, but nonetheless it was the 2nd most successful team in organization history. The '07 team lost in the finals and the '76, '92 and this year's teams made it to game 6 of the conference finals.

Dont' give me your Arenas crap that West cant' guard him. West is a good aggressive defender. He helped the team. HE has merits.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by horseofcourse

well dala. for a cleveland fan the merits of delonte west are mainly that he isn't Larry Hughes, Eric Snow, Daniel Gibson, Jeff Mcinnis, Sasha Pavlovic, Luke Jackson. They became a much better team with the acquisition of him late last year. He's a good player. He plays good defense and has some offensive skill. Those are his merits. It is not that difficult. It's pretty much basketball 101 isn't it?? The reason the Cavs went from a 45-50 regular season team to a 66 win team this year was because they played two NBA caliber guards for the first time since they got LeBron. The season failed because they lost to Orlando, but nonetheless it was the 2nd most successful team in organization history. The '07 team lost in the finals and the '76, '92 and this year's teams made it to game 6 of the conference finals.

Dont' give me your Arenas crap that West cant' guard him. West is a good aggressive defender. He helped the team. HE has merits.

In your zest and quest for deliberation, you miss the point. Delonte West, while undoubtedly an NBA caliber player, is not an NBA caliber player anyone should waste time arguing over. He is a very average NBA player.

[horseofcourse]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

In your zest and quest for deliberation, you miss the point. Delonte West, while undoubtedly an NBA caliber player, is not an NBA caliber player anyone should waste time arguing over. He is a very average NBA player.

and so is Trevor Ariza an NBA caliber player anyone should waste time arguring over. I agree with you.