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#21
06-12-2009, 11:28 AM
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There's no point in trotting out reality. Never mind that Big Brown was delayed making that one start at two and then had to be put away... Never mind that he was problematic from the feet up from word go... Somehow that will be made the fault of the Triple Crown too.
__________________
All ambitions are lawful except those which climb upward on the miseries or credulities of mankind. ~ Joseph Conrad A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right. ~ Thomas Paine Don't let anyone tell you that your dreams can't come true. They are only afraid that theirs won't and yours will. ~ Robert Evans The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. ~ George Orwell, 1984. 
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#22
06-12-2009, 11:34 AM
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I think turf writers draw straws as to who has to write about changing the Triple Crown. Next year, it will be somebody else.
It's funny... racing has changed the weights, the distances and heck, even the surfaces. Now we want to change the timing of races. At what point does someone have the lightbulb go off where they say, "Hey, it's not the races, the surfaces, the distance or the weights. It's the horse."
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#23
06-12-2009, 11:48 AM
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Yeah, I think Brown and Ragozin are the Galileo of the present era. Just as Galileo had to combat the Jesuit supporters of the Aristotelian world view, Ragozin and Brown have to deal with the old racing paradigm. Look how much they've contributed to the game. I mean their 'catch' phrases alone have armed an entire generation of otherwise clueless horseplayers. They've emboldened them the way ALL IN has inspired a generation of amateur poker players.
BOUNCE NEW TOP etc.  All for $30 (or whatever) a day. ha ha ha Only in ****in' America.
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#24
06-12-2009, 12:04 PM
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There can always be a competing Triple Crown estalished for 3 year olds. Time will tell if this 2 weeks between the KD and Preakness survives.
__________________
http://www.speakupforhorses.org/
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#25
06-12-2009, 12:29 PM
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Part of the issue is that TRAINERS have changed. Most of today's trainers have no idea how to race a horse every 2 weeks.
As for 2yo racing and the TC all the TC winners ran at 2, some of the alot. There was a time when 2yo's meant for the classics were started in June or so. They would then be ready to run in the stakes at Saratoga. Now the classic type colt is held out to break his maiden at Saratoga, run back in the Champagne and then the BCJ. The Hopeful is a glorified NW1x and the Futurity is the same. I remember when Seattle Slew's late start and 3 race juvie campaign was considered radical and many people disagreed with his getting the 2yo championship, not because he wasn't the best but because of his record of a maiden, allowance and (G1) Champagne. The belief was that he didn't "prove" himself in stakes. (Keep in mind that in that era the Champagne was the equivalent of the BCJ.) Affirmed and Alydar began their rivalry in June of their 2yo season and Secretariat debuted on July 4th. After that start, he still ran a nice race juvie campaign. Today, Laurin would be considered a butcher! In light of the fact that we have had several close misses (Smarty Jones, Real Quiet) in recent years, I don't think a dramatic shift is needed. If Real Quiet was a hair's breadth away, can it be impossible?
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RIP Monroe.
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#26
06-12-2009, 05:11 PM
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The whole idea of the triple crown is to prove the horses ability to win three gruelling races in 1 month. Maybe instead of changing the triple crown to suit modern training and breeding, they should modify the training and breeding to suit the triple crown.
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#27
06-12-2009, 05:17 PM
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Pat Forde is a dope.
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#28
06-12-2009, 05:44 PM
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I was almost ready to change my avatar, but I think I'll go with it a little longer. Some people need the reminder.
--Dunbar
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Curlin and Hard Spun finish 1,2 in the 2007 BC Classic, demonstrating how competing in all three Triple Crown races ruins a horse for the rest of the year...see avatar photo from REUTERS/Lucas Jackson
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#29
06-14-2009, 02:35 PM
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To blame The Triple Crown is ridiculously. It's a chain reaction that takes place. The sound breeding has gone downhill as it surrendered to speed at all costs. It has produced brittle runners. Training methods of yesteryear has given way to just keeping them in one piece. In turn they run less races at 2. They run less Triple Crown preps at 3. By the time the Triple Crown series is done those that were brittle begin to breakdown some even before that. The Triple Crown is not the problem. Past winners had the talent and the right foundation that is lacked today.
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#30
06-14-2009, 03:23 PM
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I don't understand why everyone can't understand that nobody is blaming the TC. We, at least I, would love for people to breed and train them different and to keep the TC the way it is. That would be my first choice. But I also know that they aren't going to do that. I'm saying that if they are going to change the ways it's done, then it only makes sense to change what you are asking them to do to adapt to what you have. It would be like baseball coming up with bats and balls that allow players to routinely hit 600-700 foot home runs but leaving the stadiums at the same size they are now. You have to adapt the playing conditions to the athletes and equipment being used to play. If they start breeding guys to be 8ft tall, would it make sense to leave the basket at 10ft?
__________________
The real horses of the year (1986-2020) Manila, Java Gold, Alysheba, Sunday Silence, Go for Wand, In Excess, Paseana, Kotashaan, Holy Bull, Cigar, Alphabet Soup, Formal Gold, Skip Away, Artax, Tiznow, Point Given, Azeri, Candy Ride, Smarty Jones, Ghostzapper, Invasor, Curlin, Zenyatta, Zenyatta, Goldikova, Havre de Grace, Wise Dan, Wise Dan, California Chrome, American Pharoah, Arrogate, Gun Runner, Accelerate, Maximum Security, Gamine
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#31
06-14-2009, 03:59 PM
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First of all: Tfds thek sdfioio sdafkljljk. I dsafkj asfdj ewiofd dfas, dje tw eioru dsljk!! Furthermore: Wdfjk eiof erwjkl ewiousfkewp quifslk eiouf, 34 fdsie thpe! Prsfjk, sfduios sfdiouew.
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#32
06-14-2009, 05:15 PM
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I would think that the longer the span in between races the less likely it is that a horse would be able to win all three races.How often does the Derby winner run a poor race in the Preakness?Not often and form cycle has alot to do with that.After two grueling races the winner is tested in the Belmont by fresh horses. Can he do it? They don't call the Belmont the test of champions for nothing.The best have proven they can in a five week time span.
Breeding hasn't changed as much as everyone believes.Bold Ruler was the dominant sire of sires in the late 60's-late 70's.His progeny were bred for speed yet two of the last three triple crown winners are from his sire line.The other comes from the Raise A Native line.The fact is that there are two parents.Secretariat got his stamina from his dam.Breeding today is no different.The Mr. Prospector line has been dominant in american breeding in the last twenty years but there is plenty of stamina through a number of his sons and grandsons.There are large numbers of horses who are bred to sprint,they don't show up for the Derby.The ones who show up are bred for stamina as well as speed.I don't buy the breeding argument. Fragility is another issue.Fragile horses are subject to injury anytime they step onto a racetrack.Spacing out the races would help their chances but why would one want to make it beneficial for horses that can't withstand the rigors of the triple crown? I would think that would make it more likely that breeders wouldn't be concerned about fragility knowing that the races are spread apart to give their fragile horse a better chance of winning. Leave the triple crown alone.
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#33
06-14-2009, 10:01 PM
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Quote:
 People are trying to have their cake and eat it too when it comes to changing the Triple Crown. Nobody's stopping them from getting G1s for these horses that can't stand the rigors. There are ways for them to go on to lucrative stud deals without putting their horses through the strain. It's not like they can't achieve a lot of things and make a lot of money without winning the TC or even just one of the races. They aren't being deprived of a darn thing. The horses that win all 3 of these races are supposed to be elite. I like Real Quiet a lot and I think he's underrated as a stallion, but honestly, he's not in Affirmed's league. Some people are trying to bring the mountain to Mohammad here and really the only way they have figured out how to do it is by wearing it down to a hill first.
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#34
06-15-2009, 05:31 AM
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Terrific view of the topic. I'm reading a Tom Ainslie book ("Ainslie's Jockey Book") from 1967, and he was talking about Bold Lad, the Bold Ruler Wheatley colt trained by Eddie Neloy that was 10th in Lucky Debonair's Derby after being one of the winter book faves at 2. He was "hobbled by leg injuries" and was rested almost a year after that before winning the Roseben and Metropolitan (over Hedevar) in 1966. Point being, this was 1965-66, and Ainslie is talking about the exact same scenario.
__________________
All ambitions are lawful except those which climb upward on the miseries or credulities of mankind. ~ Joseph Conrad A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right. ~ Thomas Paine Don't let anyone tell you that your dreams can't come true. They are only afraid that theirs won't and yours will. ~ Robert Evans The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. ~ George Orwell, 1984.
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#35
06-15-2009, 06:51 AM
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Agree with the breeding aspect as an obvious issue. That's the reason some of the horses aren't withstanding the rigors of the crown. Don't change the crown, keep medication limited and improve the breed....and poof you will have triple crown winners. I guess I'm in the camp that I don't mind that we haven't had a Triple Crown winner in a while, it simply proves what an accomplisment it was for the horses who have done it.
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#36
06-15-2009, 06:58 AM
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Does anyone know off the top of their head how many horses have won the first 2 legs only to fail in the Belmont since Affirmed last won the Triple Crown?
__________________
"Success does not consist in never making blunders, but in never making the same one a second time." - Josh Billings
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#37
06-15-2009, 06:59 AM
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#38
06-15-2009, 07:13 AM
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won derby, preakness and lost belmont (belmont finish after name) since affirmed :
spectacular bid-3 pleasant colony-3 alysheba-4 sunday silence-2 silver charm-2 real quiet-2 charismatic-3 war emblem-8 funny cide-3 smarty jones-2 big brown-dnf 11 horses in that list...of course there are others since affirmed to win two legs of it but not the third-such as risen star, swale, afleet alex just to name a few. also, seven of the eleven above raced at four, with only one of them actually suffering a career ending injury in the classics. war emblem and funny cide ran the rest of the year.
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#39
06-15-2009, 07:26 AM
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Wow forgot about a couple there.
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#40
06-15-2009, 07:53 AM
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Quote:
__________________
"Boston fans hate the Yankees, we hate the Canadiens and we hate the Lakers. It's in our DNA. It just is." - Bill Simmons
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