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#1
09-10-2006, 02:51 PM
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http://web.amnesty.org/pages/guantanamobay-index-eng http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/paperchas...s-to-close.php There are two Americans there. There families did not know where they were for three years. They had no right to a trial or a lawyer. I see something wrong with this...(i.e. U.S. Constitution). If you read the articles, a lot of "detainees" are released and are not charged. That means that the government could come into our homes, and take any one of us away when they please. That is for starters. There are lots more reasons. 
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#2
09-10-2006, 03:05 PM
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i'm sorry, but i don't see why i should be worried about being taken out of my home for no reason, since A: i'm not a terrorist or suspected terrorist, B: i'm not in afghanistan or iraq fighting againt the u.s. and C: i'm a law abiding u.s. citizen. i seriously doubt that those who are in gitmo or elsewhere can say any of those things.
i do believe that we should be following the geneva convention regarding foreign combatants. i don't believe those combatants have any rights under the u.s. constitution.
__________________
Books serve to show a man that those original thoughts of his aren't very new at all. Abraham Lincoln
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#3
09-10-2006, 03:09 PM
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KRIM: I read the articles....and to tell the truth, I was troubled by the secret prison revalation! But, in reality, laws are meant for the lawbreaker, and in War, especially a clandestine war...the security of our once safe country comes first! These are scary times, but I'm not worried too much about the Govt. BTW...Danzig...thanks for your imput.
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#4
09-10-2006, 03:33 PM
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But what about the people who don't break the laws? What about the innocent people? What about the Americans at the detainee camp who have been stripped of their Constitutional rights who may or may not be innocent? I'm sure a lot of these people thought that it couldn't happen to them either. No one should ever think that it couldn't happen to them. I learned that a long time ago. It has been steadily getting worse, and it's only going to get worse from here. The fact that no one can give me a halfway decent answer as to why we are in Iraq trying to establish democracy when it has been proven time and time again throughout history that we cannot establish a democracy in Iraq until other things happen first proves my point. Well let me tell you, the things that have to happen first are not going to happen any time soon. History is bound to repeat itself once again.
Why are we in Iraq? Why did we go over there in the first place? If it was for Hussein, then why didn't Clinton go over there? Why has the government told us that the Iraqi people hate Americans? Do they really hate us? So many questions unanswered... In the New York Times on August 17, 2006, Bob Herbert wrote an article called The Tyranny of Fear. It might put a different perspective on the situation. Last edited by kentuckyrosesinmay : 09-10-2006 at 03:41 PM.
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#5
09-10-2006, 03:48 PM
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KRIM: why didn't you just say "I want to argue about the war" instead of innocently posing the other 2 questions? Danzig answered your questions! BTW..you're like 19?..what could you possibly learned a long time ago??? I think I agree with Kevin!!
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#6
09-10-2006, 04:55 PM
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I just wish, for once, that I could have a conversation with someone from this message board without them personally attacking me? Just once? Besides Genuine Risk just got to the point for me. Thank you Genuine Risk. That was very well stated and my opinion is the same as yours. Last edited by kentuckyrosesinmay : 09-10-2006 at 05:24 PM.
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#7
09-11-2006, 04:49 AM
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so you're worried about the innocent ones, taken out of their homes? i really don't think anyone in gitmo was dragged out of their home. i do think they were dragged out of iraq or afganistan. as for the woman arrested at the capitol, everyone has a right to their opinion, and to free speech--but they don't have the right to break the law to make themselves heard. we have a right to assembly, not to trespassing.
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#8
09-11-2006, 06:35 AM
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#9
09-10-2006, 04:01 PM
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9/11 terrified us. Virtually alone among the world, we were the only country to have been spared terrorist attacks, other than the previous attempt in '93 and our own home-grown terrorists, who struck in Oklahoma City and in Atlanta and at abortion clinics. And our reaction has been to beat our chests and march into a nation that didn't have anything to do with the 9/11 attacks (that would be Iraq), while at home we hand over our freedoms to an Administration that is doing everything it can to keep us in a constant state of terror. I want to quote one of the letters written about an article on Salon about the aftermath of 9/11-- oh, here's the link to the article, too: http://salon.com/opinion/feature/2006/09/09/loss/ <<And when it did happen, did our supposed representatives make the most of that momentary (international) solidarity and do the right thing? Of course not. They pulled off a underhanded power grab, and five years later we're clinging to the last illusions of freedom we've got - the freedom to spend money on superfluous crap while our government squeezes all the joy out of our lives, setting us at each other's throats in panic. And they can do that because the American PEOPLE have been happy to go along with it, all in the name of the fantasy of "security" which is no security at all. We're not only not "safer", we're in more danger than ever, because a populace made timid and complicit is far more vulnerable than one strong and secure in its own self, regardless of whether there is an outside threat or not. Franklin Delano Roosevelt was right - The only thing we have to fear is fear itself. Benjamin Franklin was also right - Those who would surrender essential liberties in exchange for a little temporary safety deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. The worst threat comes from within us, and I do hope that someday we'll figure that out. But frankly, I doubt it. Methinks the time of America's greatness is past, and we're on the downhill side.>> Telling ourselves that our gov't should be allowed to spy on us and throw citizens in jail without benefit of counsel or knowing the charges against them because they'll only spy on bad people is naive at best, sheeplike at worst. It easily becomes a "do whatever you want; just please leave me alone" and how on earth do we stay a united nation when we are willing to let the next guy be dragged off into the night? How do we hold our heads up when we let our government, the government WE put in place, take away our rights? Because 19 hijackers got lucky and killed 3,000 people? For that, we give up our freedom? Who wins then? Us, or them? And here's something else to put in your crystal balls-- from Andrew Sullivan's website: <<Next week, I'm informed via troubled White House sources, will see the full unveiling of Karl Rove's fall election strategy. He's intending to line up 9/11 families to accuse McCain, Warner and Graham of delaying justice for the perpetrators of that atrocity, because they want to uphold the ancient judicial traditions of the U.S. military and abide by the Constitution. He will use the families as an argument for legalizing torture, setting up kangaroo courts for military prisoners, and giving war crime impunity for his own aides and cronies. This is his "Hail Mary" move for November; it's brutally exploitative of 9/11; it's pure partisanship; and it's designed to enable an untrammeled executive. Decent Republicans, Independents and Democrats must do all they can to expose and resist this latest descent into political thuggery. If you need proof that this administration's first priority is not a humane and effective counter-terror strategy, but a brutal, exploitative path to retaining power at any price, you just got it.>> Is that the country you want to live in? Guys, if this does come out to be true, please be aware of it for what it is-- an attempt to hold onto power by terrifying the American people. Is that a war on terror or a war of terror? You tell me.
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#10
09-10-2006, 04:39 PM
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GR: crystal balls? Thanks for the compliment! 1 outta 2 on the quotes isn't bad...but our essential rights haven't been denied! How 'bout deeply troubled? I have no answer for some of your empassioned queries....except I too agree we are on a downhill slide. In America today, it takes 2 earners to barely break even, meaning most of us are just trying to make a living, hoping the kids are safe, praying that no major crisis strikes before the kids' college fund is complete. We trust our leaders to do the right thing and we find out way too often they've fallen short of our trust and vision. I don't think wiretapping is correct unless the court(checks and balances) allows it, but if it saves thousands of lives by doing it then I'm good. The problem with our govt is that it has been complicit in so much crap way before you and I were born that we've weakened or destroyed most of our credibility to the US citizens, and in some cases, our allies. I can only hope that ALL of the good-ol-boy cliques can be done away with....on both sides of the aisle.
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#11
09-11-2006, 10:27 AM
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Which again, comes back to my plea of, don't fall for the, "Look at the monkey! Look at the monkey!" distractions they have been pulling on us for six years. Don't fall for it! Life is not by its nature, perfectly safe. New Yorkers probably know that better than anyone-- violence, even in our new, improved city, is still a daily occurence. But we go out every day and go about our lives, and still stroll about with our "New York F*cking City" attitude that we know makes the rest of the country furious.  Because danger is not reason to allow your phone calls to be monitored without a court OK, or to have the names the books you read handed over by librarians, or your medical records available to the gov't (which they now are). Our gov't is supposed to work FOR us. And if they demand to listen to my phone calls with impunity, all the while letting most packages coming into the US ports go uninspected, then by God, they aren't working for me; they're working for themselves and it's time to throw the bastards out. I won't spend my days living in constant terror of another attack, and as a New Yorker, I'm in more danger from a foreign terrorist than most people out in the heartland (though heartlanders have their home-grown ones to worry about). But my freedom is worth more to me than my fear. And I'm tired of an Administration using fear so it can take away my economic security and my personal liberties. I'm tired of an Administration that calls me a terrorist sympathizer every time I disagree with it (and worse yet, inspires my fellow Americans to call me one, too).Whew. Props again, to everyone, for being so polite in discussion. We're SO much better than cable news...  And I do agree, TG, that the gov't has been complicit in plenty of stuff going way back, too-- I don't think you're wrong about that-- I just think the increasing economic inequality is a bit more recent. I saw a documentary that I think is going to be re-released in a few months, called "America--Freedom to Fascism" that, while not perfect, was a fount of interesting information about the Federal Reserve Board and all kinds of stuff. I can honestly say, I think there's stuff in it for everyone, Dems, Pubs and Indies alike. Look for it.
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#12
09-11-2006, 11:05 AM
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Another good thread....good points raised by most posters.
If we lived in Israel, we'd be giving up more of our rights than we are forced to do here just to survive...brings me back to Jack McCoy in front of the Supreme Court arguing for the ability to prosecute a foreign national for murdering folks..."in the end, we have only those rights that we can defend...only those rights!" There is a price to pay for freedom and if we as individuals become unwilling to pay that price, our children will never know what it was like to live in a free society! All that said...the current administration has trampled our rights to the point where any intelligent person must question their actions! I'm not prepared to say that Bush isn't doing these things out of a genuine belief that they are necessary to protect us, but government, by it's very nature, tends to expand it's power if left unchecked...the duty of every citizen is to question and demand honest answers...then, if we feel a wrong path has been chosen, we have the power to correct that at the ballot box! The problem in this nation can't be laid at the doorstep of one man, or one party...the problem is that the rich are too rich, the powerful too powerful, the influential too self-serving! One man, one vote has become a joke as the choices are clones of one another...Bush or Kerry? Would it have made the slightest difference? Bush or Gore? Same thing! We need to open up the political system, eliminate lobbyists, eliminate "donations" from the rich, and return the focal point of political life to serving the people...ALL THE PEOPLE!! We need national health care, a real dedication to public education, redevelopment and jobs for poverty-stricken areas, and yes, Francis...a redistribution of wealth! This gets me branded as a socialist or worse but what does Bill Gates need with a hundred billion dollars? Work hard, get ahead, live well...I have no problem with that, but not at the expense of the rest of society! Redo the tax system, cap wealth and cut out the "pork" in legislation and everyone in this country can live a decent life! The role of government is to serve the people, not establish a caste system and insure that there are two Americas...there must be only one America! In the words of Duncan McCloud..."there can be only one!"
__________________
"Always be yourself...unless you suck!"
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#13
09-11-2006, 12:06 PM
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so since hussein committed genocie 'a long time ago' that's ok?? and it wasn't that long ago, not that that matters. i'd image the family members of those killed feel like it was just yesterday, when it was after gulf one. really not so long ago after all.
and as i said, those that are not u.s. citizens should fall under the geneva convention, but not the constitution. after all, our citizens convicted in foreign countries are not under the us constitution, so foreign nationals have no argument that they should be here. also, the geneva convention is supposedly for prisoners of war...that is where the bush admin tries to get slippery, they call this a war, but don't want to call the people they are fighting soldiers, they want to call them terrorists. can't have it both ways. absolutely our citizens should have constitutional rights!
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#14
09-10-2006, 04:03 PM
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Which is not to criticize either you, Timm, or Danzig, please know that. I like you both and very much respect you. But this gov't has pulled a hell of a bait-and-switch on the American people for the past 5 years and I just can't bear seeing what's happening to my beloved country. So my long rant has nothing to do with either of you (lord knows in racing stuff, you both run circles around me. Pun intended)
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