Random post-Derby thoughts

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by justindew

What about asking serious questions about the nature of the debate? Are you as opposed to that as you are to my "cheerleading" and "chest thumping"?

The thing is this, you clearly saw some validation of your opinion in Pioneerof the Nile running 2nd in the Derby. That's OK, you should feel good about him being your pick. However, if you think him being a distant 2nd in a race that was completely wiped out by the winner (does TFM have a trademark on that phrase?) while he ran basically the same average figure and interfered with the 3-4 finishers enough to hold 2nd is enough for the people on this board or anywhere to say they were wrong about POTN, it's not going to happen. No excessively verbose plea will ever get that to happen.

NT

[justindew]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

The thing is this, you clearly saw some validation of your opinion in Pioneerof the Nile running 2nd in the Derby. That's OK, you should feel good about him being your pick. However, if you think him being a distant 2nd in a race that was completely wiped out by the winner (does TFM have a trademark on that phrase?) while he ran basically the same average figure and interfered with the 3-4 finishers enough to hold 2nd is enough for the people on this board or anywhere to say they were wrong about POTN, it's not going to happen. No excessively verbose plea will ever get that to happen.

NT

While I appreciate your non-confrontational response, I must remind you that I never said anyone was wrong or that I was right. I merely asked those who are anti-POTN to state, for the record, exactly what they think about the horse AND what has to happen for them to change their minds.

When I asked "What does POTN have to do...", I legitimately wanted to know what they feel he has to do.

[blackthroatedwind]

He has to run at least one race that isn't below average for a supposed good horse. You can call this obstinacy on my part, but it really isn't, it's merely realism. His synthetic races are mediocre and his dirt race was no better. I am surprised that he even ran roughly as well on dirt, be it a sloppy track, as he did on the synthetics, but he surely didn't improve as many claimed he would.

[justindew]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

He has to run at least one race that isn't below average for a supposed good horse. You can call this obstinacy on my part, but it really isn't, it's merely realism. His synthetic races are mediocre and his dirt race was no better. I am surprised that he even ran roughly as well on dirt, be it a sloppy track, as he did on the synthetics, but he surely didn't improve as many claimed he would.

Andy, I respect your opinions. But this has to be the most vague answer to a specific question that I have ever seen on DT.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by justindew

Andy, I respect your opinions. But this has to be the most vague answer to a specific question that I have ever seen on DT.

Fair enough, but think of it historically. People talked about him as a TC kind of horse and he isn't even as fast as Giacomo.

[justindew]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Fair enough, but think of it historically. People talked about him as a TC kind of horse and he isn't even as fast as Giacomo.

Based on what? Beyer Speed Figures? Thoro-graph?

Here. I'll give you a few suggestions for the "POTN Standard".....

-Pioneerof The Nile must run a Beyer Speed Figure of 105 or higher on dirt in order for me to admit he is a "dirt horse."

-Pioneerof The Nile must win a Grade I on dirt.....

-Pioneerof The Nile must win any graded stakes race on dirt while earning a Beyer Speed Figure of 100 or higher...

[blackthroatedwind]

Speed figures certainly help. But it's also a matter of reasonable judgement of talent. Call this vague if you want but it's not necessarily definable.

[fpsoxfan]

First confrontational, now vague. I guess until you hear want you want to hear, no answer will be good enough for you.

[justindew]

Originally Posted by fpsoxfan

First confrontational, now vague. I guess until you hear want you want to hear, no answer will be good enough for you.

Um, I called your response "non-confrontational", and Andy admitted he was being vague.

Jesus. Can anyone on this website understand that not everyone is being a sarcastic a-hole? Can anyone read?

[fpsoxfan]

Originally Posted by justindew

Um, I called your response "non-confrontational", and Andy admitted he was being vague.

Jesus. Can anyone on this website understand that not everyone is being a sarcastic a-hole? Can anyone read?

Wow man. Relax. You seem like a good guy. It's just you asked a question and people are responding. Good luck in the Preakness!

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by justindew

While I appreciate your non-confrontational response, I must remind you that I never said anyone was wrong or that I was right. I merely asked those who are anti-POTN to state, for the record, exactly what they think about the horse AND what has to happen for them to change their minds.

When I asked "What does POTN have to do...", I legitimately wanted to know what they feel he has to do.

is anyone really anti-POTN? wanting to see success on dirt to answer if a horse has dirt form doesn't make one anti-anything-execpt maybe anti-speculation based on breeding alone. i'm a person who has to see something to believe it can happen-just like most of us had to see mine that bird actually win that thing to think he had a shot at the derby.

i think POTN needs to win a top race on a fast dirt surface, while facing top horses. it's a shame that the field fell apart, and what looked like one of the better derby renewals we've had in a while turned into a scratch filled slopfest. imo the derby is a toss, the results aren't meaningful, since many of the better thought of horses left in the field failed to run their race. or, i think they did. maybe some horses were under-, and others, over-rated. that's why i'm hoping the preakness has better weather and a fast track.

[fpsoxfan]

Originally Posted by justindew

While I appreciate your non-confrontational response, I must remind you that I never said anyone was wrong or that I was right. I merely asked those who are anti-POTN to state, for the record, exactly what they think about the horse AND what has to happen for them to change their minds.

When I asked "What does POTN have to do...", I legitimately wanted to know what they feel he has to do.

Not be a pig.............LOL.....


EPosse is on to something!!!!!!

[pointman]

Pioneer of What? Even worse than I thought he was!

[ateamstupid]

[the_fat_man]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

However, if you think him being a distant 2nd in a race that was completely wiped out by the winner (does TFM have a trademark on that phrase?)
NT

Nick

Actually, it was a 'wipeout otherwise'.

West Side Bernie being the exception.