Syn to Dirt Beyer Converter

[CSC]

I'm going to throw this out for discussion because I am sure no one has these stats, in general do dirt horses have more difficulty adapting to synthetic surfaces? Whereas synthetic horses adapt better to dirt tracks? Or simply stated who adapts better.

[the_fat_man]

Originally Posted by CSC

I'm going to throw this out for discussion because I am sure no one has these stats, in general do dirt horses have more difficulty adapting to synthetic surfaces? Whereas synthetic horses adapt better to dirt tracks? Or simply stated who adapts better.

I don't know how many tracks you follow but isn't it become more and more the case that trainers are allowing their horses to run on more surfaces? Not only are horses switching between turf and artificial surfaces (not much of a switch at all) but there's more switching between dirt and turf, as well. Check out what was happening this winter at FG, for example.

In a few years, most horses will be running on ALL surfaces and all those wise tales that horsemen and handicappers have bought into will be a thing of the past. Sadly, and unfortunately, horse players, especially the speed centric ones, will be the last to let go.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

I don't know how many tracks you follow but isn't it become more and more the case that trainers are allowing their horses to run on more surfaces? Not only are horses switching between turf and artificial surfaces (not much of a switch at all) but there's more switching between dirt and turf, as well. Check out what was happening this winter at FG, for example.

In a few years, most horses will be running on ALL surfaces and all those wise tales that horsemen and handicappers have bought into will be a thing of the past. Sadly, and unfortunately, horse players, especially the speed centric ones, will be the last to let go.

Acoma is one that comes to mind, she's won on dirt/synth/turf and she is by Empire Maker.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Riot

At Keeneland, the lack of favorites winning is due more, IMO, to the variety of horses (especially young horses) shipping in from all over (mixing of populations that have never run against each other before).

Saratoga has a lot of that ... and yet favorites still win at a solid 106-for-254 (42%) clip in dirt stake races this decade. They are 38-for-105 in turf graded stakes this decade.


On Keeneland's synthetic track - favorites have gone a mind-bogglingly dismal 6-for-54 in stake races.

Street Sense losing to Domincan in a near five way photo is an example of some of the goofy results.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Saratoga has a lot of that ... and yet favorites still win at a solid 106-for-254 (42%) clip in dirt stake races this decade. They are 38-for-105 in turf graded stakes this decade.


On Keeneland's synthetic track - favorites have gone a mind-bogglingly dismal 6-for-54 in stake races.

Street Sense losing to Domincan in a near five way photo is an example of some of the goofy results.

Point taken about SAR. I don't think that dirt courses can change (loosen up, tighten up) throughout the day as much as Polytrack can.

[cmorioles]

While I agree moisture has a lot to do with where winners come from (front or back) on synthetics, it has nothing to do with the figures. Even on wet synthetic tracks dominated by frontrunners, the figures come back "tighter" than they do on dirt tracks. I'm not saying this is good or bad, but just the way it is.

One thing I find funny in these discussions is the way some people act like a front runner has never won on turf.

[the_fat_man]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

One thing I find funny in these discussions is the way some people act like a front runner has never won on turf.

Nothing wrong with 'earning' a victory on the front end. I took a quick look at a number of dates at SA and I found at least a few wire jobs on each day. Nothing wrong with that. And, since these aren't match races we're dealing with, nothing wrong with the setup of the race determining the winner.

You really should come over here more often for some engaging exchanges, rather than indulging all those trainers, owners, and yo yo's over at PA. You're just about the only one out there with a clue as to pace.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

You're just about the only one out there with a clue as to pace.

You wont be getting a Christmas card from Randy Moss with comments like that.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

While I agree moisture has a lot to do with where winners come from (front or back) on synthetics, it has nothing to do with the figures. Even on wet synthetic tracks dominated by frontrunners, the figures come back "tighter" than they do on dirt tracks. I'm not saying this is good or bad, but just the way it is.

Interesting. Thanks for that.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

While I agree moisture has a lot to do with where winners come from (front or back) on synthetics, it has nothing to do with the figures. Even on wet synthetic tracks dominated by frontrunners, the figures come back "tighter" than they do on dirt tracks. I'm not saying this is good or bad, but just the way it is.

One thing I find funny in these discussions is the way some people act like a front runner has never won on turf.

one thing i love to see is a front end theft in a turf route, especially against a tough field. its like a thing of beauty when they pull it off.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

one thing i love to see is a front end theft in a turf route, especially against a tough field. its like a thing of beauty when they pull it off.

I think part of the reason we see less of the front end thefts are jockies of today are not of the same quality we have had in years gone past, Gary Stevens was just about the best rider at doing this, you could always adjust your handicapping accordingly if you foresaw a paceless race with him in a race. You see what some would term as top riders riding at SA right now and you are quickly reminded just how great a rider he truly was.

[rgustafson]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

one thing i love to see is a front end theft in a turf route, especially against a tough field. its like a thing of beauty when they pull it off.

Yes and especially the turf marathons, one and a half miles. There was a big gray horse that Pincay rode years ago out in SoCal. He'd send him right to the front and lope along. Any time a horse came to him, he would just let out another notch. He won quite a few races this way. Can't remember the horses name though.