Belmont the Fall Championship Meet

Mineshaft's Eclipse was the exception to the rule. His dominance was not ignored.

Originally Posted by Bold Reasoning

Mineshaft's Eclipse was the exception to the rule. His dominance was not ignored.

Only because they were bright enough to pass it and it worked out ok. Had Medag or Congaree won that day instead of dueling each other, they woulda beat him.
Thats a great example of why the voting is screwed up. Farish/Howard had two choices, and neither was attractive. They could go there and hope to be one of the incredibly few dirt horses to ship in there and run well, or they could pass and hope that a horse won the classic who couldnt unseat him.
Fact is he shoulda been champ regardless of how he did that day. As a result, he didnt run and fans were denied from seeing him again.
Same sort of think happened with Azeri in 2004 and that one should really burn fan's butts. Azeri and Sightseek were locked in a tight duel for the eclipse. Sight was retired before the cup. Now Azeri's people had a problem, if she ran in the distaff and lost, she could lose the vote. If she didn't run at all, she had to sweat out a close vote. So they chose plan c, run her in the classic where she had no chance!!! That way they could claim after the race that they had taken a hard shot and should not be penalized, but couldnt be accused of skipping BC day and being afraid to compete.
Sad part is that their strategy worked.

[Gander]

This year's horse of the year will be decided in the BC, as it should. Down to 3 possible contenders: Lava Man, Bernardini and Invasor. Right now all 3 are likely to ship to Churchill after their next prep.

If we get all 3 of these horses in that race, it would be something of a miracle, lets keep our fingers crossed. May the best horse win.

Originally Posted by Gander

This year's horse of the year will be decided in the BC, as it should. Down to 3 possible contenders: Lava Man, Bernardini and Invasor. Right now all 3 are likely to ship to Churchill after their next prep.

If we get all 3 of these horses in that race, it would be something of a miracle, lets keep our fingers crossed. May the best horse win.

Tim are you saying that every championship should be decided in the BC? I disagree strongly. This year yes, because they havent met each other yet. But in most years its usually pretty clear who the best is in many divisons.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Bold Reasoning

Mineshaft's Eclipse was the exception to the rule. His dominance was not ignored.

I have never seen an HOY with a shorter list of vanquished quality horses. I cant think of one good horse Mineshaft ever beat that was in form.

Originally Posted by dalakhani

I have never seen an HOY with a shorter list of vanquished quality horses. I cant think of one good horse Mineshaft ever beat that was in form.

apparently you didnt pay your cable bill the years that Azeri and Favorite Trick won.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by oracle80

apparently you didnt pay your cable bill the years that Azeri and Favorite Trick won.

LOL. good point. I should have amend my statement to say to only include champion older horse.

[Gander]

No I am with you guys on the BC should not define eclipse awards. Thats as silly as saying the team with the best record in the AL should play the team with the best record in the NL in 1 single game to decide the world champs, and do away with round of 5 and 7 game series in the playoffs.

I'm saying for this year, its actually going to work out. The horse out of those 3 who wins the Classic fully deserves to be HOY.

Originally Posted by Gander

No I am with you guys on the BC should not define eclipse awards. Thats as silly as saying the team with the best record in the AL should play the team with the best record in the NL in 1 single game to decide the world champs, and do away with round of 5 and 7 game series in the playoffs.

I'm saying for this year, its actually going to work out. The horse out of those 3 who wins the Classic fully deserves to be HOY.

agreed, but if one of em doesnt?

[Gander]

I guess it all depends on how many of these 3 show up and actually run in the BC. There are so many circumstances if one of these 3 should not win.

We still have to see how these 3 do in their next races. Then it will become a little clearer on what happens if a surprise horse jumps up and wins the BC.

Tim,
Don't you see the problem? What if one of em doesnt win? Then what?
Thats the problem Tim, older horses spend the year ducking each other because thats whats smart. WHy would Invasor or Lava have shipped this year to meet each other when they could stay home and win grade ones. Suppose they run 6th and 7th in the BC, it happens Tim. Speed duels, injuries, bad rides, not liking the track, etc.
Thats the rub. How you decide which horse was better if they both don't fire when they meet? The cup encourages only year end meetings between horses, and often times their form isnt the same as it was earlier in the year.
It deprives fans and racetracks from good all year round matchups.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by oracle80

Tim,
Don't you see the problem? What if one of em doesnt win? Then what?
Thats the problem Tim, older horses spend the year ducking each other because thats whats smart. WHy would Invasor or Lava have shipped this year to meet each other when they could stay home and win grade ones. Suppose they run 6th and 7th in the BC, it happens Tim. Speed duels, injuries, bad rides, not liking the track, etc.
Thats the rub. How you decide which horse was better if they both don't fire when they meet? The cup encourages only year end meetings between horses, and often times their form isnt the same as it was earlier in the year.
It deprives fans and racetracks from good all year round matchups.

Wouldnt you say race grading also has something to do with the ducking? I have always said that the races should be graded AFTER they have been run or not at all. Too many phoney graded stake races out there.

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Wouldnt you say race grading also has something to do with the ducking? I have always said that the races should be graded AFTER they have been run or not at all. Too many phoney graded stake races out there.

Well there is too many Graded Races in my opinion. Here is a list of Grade I's for 2006 for males 3 year old and up at a distance longer than 1 mile.

Belmont
Breeders Cup Classic
Cigar Mile
Clark Handicap
Donn Handicap
Florida Derby
Haskell
Hollywood Gold Cup
Jockey Club Gold Cup
Kentucky Derby
Metropolitan
Pacific Classic
Pimlico Speical
Preakness
Santa Anita Derby
Santa Anita Handicap
Stephen Foster
Suburban
Toyota Bluegrass Stakes
Travers
Whitney
Wood Memorial
Woodward Stakes

23 Grade I Stakes. That is insane.

Racing was much better off before the Breeders Cup, thats the bottom line.

The slogan should be "Racings championship Day that's turned great days all year long into mediocre ones!!!"

Originally Posted by oracle80

Racing was much better off before the Breeders Cup, thats the bottom line.

The slogan should be "Racings championship Day that's turned great days all year long into mediocre ones!!!"

I cant we both agree on this Oracle. I have been saying for years that the Breeders Cup is bad for racing. In theory it is a great idea. But it has taken a whole different look than its intention.

[Scurlogue Champ]

Originally Posted by oracle80

agreed, but if one of em doesnt?

Wouldn't it be funny if someone like Lawyer Ron just went out there and stroked them all on BC day?

Johnny McKee would be hanging on for dear life...

[Slewbopper]

Originally Posted by Bold Reasoning

Mineshaft's Eclipse was the exception to the rule. His dominance was not ignored.

Same with Holy Bull.

Taking nothing away from John Henry, who sat on the sidelines for the '84 BC, but Slew O Gold pretty much got screwed out of HOY after a brilliant campaign winning the Whitney, Marlboro, Woodward, and JCGC by losing a controversial Classic IN California. Had Wild Again been taken down, SOG would have been HOY. If I recall SOG and John were tied in the voting and some tie breaker was used to give John HOY

With Belmont the closest track to me, I truly miss the fall championship series. There used to actually be fans at Belmont on big days other than the Stakes prior to the BC. Anyway, BC day is the best day of racing all year, bar none.

Originally Posted by Slewbopper

Same with Holy Bull.

Taking nothing away from John Henry, who sat on the sidelines for the '84 BC, but Slew O Gold pretty much got screwed out of HOY after a brilliant campaign winning the Whitney, Marlboro, Woodward, and JCGC by losing a controversial Classic IN California. Had Wild Again been taken down, SOG would have been HOY. If I recall SOG and John were tied in the voting and some tie breaker was used to give John HOY

With Belmont the closest track to me, I truly miss the fall championship series. There used to actually be fans at Belmont on big days other than the Stakes prior to the BC. Anyway, BC day is the best day of racing all year, bar none.

Slewbopper,
I know that the Breeders Cup is here to stay, so the whole conversation/debate is moot. But I think its done more to harm racing than any other innovation in recent times.
The reason we can't generate a fan base that is consistent from June-February, is that we give people no reason to be fans.
People like rivalries, always have and always will. Baseball is a 162 game tedious and long season. Its hard to get worked up about any single game within that span. yet, when the Yankees and red sox play, people tune in. WHy? because of the rivalry of course.
College football is the same way.
In the good old days of my youth, rivalries existed because the only way to win a championship was to beat most of your opponents all year more times than they beat you.
The Breeders Cup was a great idea in theory. A year end celebration of racing that would move from place to place in order to expose more fans to racing.
But what its done is create a voting system for champions that ignores the rest of the years accomplishments and in the process has destroyed the stature of many races. Trainers no longer wanna hook up with the main rival in the year, they play dodgeball, and who can blame them? Its crippled the product all year long and I just don't think that one fantastic day is worth all that.

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by oracle80

Slewbopper,
I know that the Breeders Cup is here to stay, so the whole conversation/debate is moot. But I think its done more to harm racing than any other innovation in recent times.
The reason we can't generate a fan base that is consistent from June-February, is that we give people no reason to be fans.
People like rivalries, always have and always will. Baseball is a 162 game tedious and long season. Its hard to get worked up about any single game within that span. yet, when the Yankees and red sox play, people tune in. WHy? because of the rivalry of course.
College football is the same way.
In the good old days of my youth, rivalries existed because the only way to win a championship was to beat most of your opponents all year more times than they beat you.
The Breeders Cup was a great idea in theory. A year end celebration of racing that would move from place to place in order to expose more fans to racing.
But what its done is create a voting system for champions that ignores the rest of the years accomplishments and in the process has destroyed the stature of many races. Trainers no longer wanna hook up with the main rival in the year, they play dodgeball, and who can blame them? Its crippled the product all year long and I just don't think that one fantastic day is worth all that.

Okay, I follow but this is how I figure things ...

1. BC Classic Win = HoY = Top Stud Value.
2. BC Classic Purse = $5 Mil = 5x (!!) Value of any other NA Grade 1

So, if you run 3rd in the BCC, the owner gets as much as if he won the JCGC or the Pac Classic. PLUS, you get huge "extra credit" toward the HoY if you win.

To me that's why they all point to the BCC. It's the $$. It's hard to believe that $1 Mil is seen as "change" but it is compared to the BCC and that's the problem. Why the heck the purse is so very high is beyond my understanding.

Originally Posted by SentToStud

Okay, I follow but this is how I figure things ...

1. BC Classic Win = HoY = Top Stud Value.
2. BC Classic Purse = $5 Mil = 5x (!!) Value of any other NA Grade 1

So, if you run 3rd in the BCC, the owner gets as much as if he won the JCGC or the Pac Classic. PLUS, you get huge "extra credit" toward the HoY if you win.

To me that's why they all point to the BCC. It's the $$. It's hard to believe that $1 Mil is seen as "change" but it is compared to the BCC and that's the problem. Why the heck the purse is so very high is beyond my understanding.

Stud,
Its not the purse money my friend. Its the chance at residual value for being a champion.
Purse money, even 5 or 6 mill, doesnt even put a dent in what a horse is worth if its a champion.
Look at the Dubai World cup. 6 mill and now noone will send a good horse over there. Why? because they know that they will come back with a spent horse and no shot to be champ. Purse money is not gonna match a 20 mill or 10 mill stud deal.