Belmont the Fall Championship Meet

[JJP]

I agree with most of what Oracle says although the problem isn't in the Breeders Cup races themselves; its in the perception of those who vote for the Eclipse Awards. While the BC races should be a factor, they should not be the end-all for year end voting, IMO.

Originally Posted by JJP

I agree with most of what Oracle says although the problem isn't in the Breeders Cup races themselves; its in the perception of those who vote for the Eclipse Awards. While the BC races should be a factor, they should not be the end-all for year end voting, IMO.

Amen brother.

Originally Posted by eurobounce

Amen brother.

Agreed. Its not the trainers fault that they have to pander to a largely unedcuated crowd.
Each year Watchmaker or Crist does a piece on the eclipse voting and lists some horses that people actually vote for. Its hysterical. You just can't believe what some of these guys do.
If you wanna restore the rest of the year, you 'd need a total overhaul in the way these awards are decided. Many of the voters obviously don't pay attention to the whole year and these are the guys who are deciding hundreds of millions in residual value.
I really can't believe that racing hasn't taken this more seriously and overhauled the voting process and who can vote. They definitely need a system with 1-2-3 voting points like the Baseball awards and College football polls. They also should take Steve Crist or a few others and have them select a committee of voters that are educated, care about the game, and represent a cross section of racing and geography of the country. That way the east Coast bias whiners couldnt gripe each year.
The voting for Eclipses based on BC day is the lazy man's way to decide who to vote for, and its ruined the way the game is played all year. If I was raciing czar for a day, that would be my first move.

Originally Posted by oracle80

Agreed. Its not the trainers fault that they have to pander to a largely unedcuated crowd.
Each year Watchmaker or Crist does a piece on the eclipse voting and lists some horses that people actually vote for. Its hysterical. You just can't believe what some of these guys do.
If you wanna restore the rest of the year, you 'd need a total overhaul in the way these awards are decided. Many of the voters obviously don't pay attention to the whole year and these are the guys who are deciding hundreds of millions in residual value.
I really can't believe that racing hasn't taken this more seriously and overhauled the voting process and who can vote. They definitely need a system with 1-2-3 voting points like the Baseball awards and College football polls. They also should take Steve Crist or a few others and have them select a committee of voters that are educated, care about the game, and represent a cross section of racing and geography of the country. That way the east Coast bias whiners couldnt gripe each year.
The voting for Eclipses based on BC day is the lazy man's way to decide who to vote for, and its ruined the way the game is played all year. If I was raciing czar for a day, that would be my first move.

That would be my 1st move as well. Lets take Silver Train for example, that horse could go undefeated all year and actually beat the horse who won the BC Sprint, but since he didnt race outside of Belmont and didnt race in the Sprint then he wouldnt win the award. I really think a committee needs to be formed to vote on these awards, and I like your point systems. There is too much on the line for the vote to be so casual.

Originally Posted by eurobounce

That would be my 1st move as well. Lets take Silver Train for example, that horse could go undefeated all year and actually beat the horse who won the BC Sprint, but since he didnt race outside of Belmont and didnt race in the Sprint then he wouldnt win the award. I really think a committee needs to be formed to vote on these awards, and I like your point systems. There is too much on the line for the vote to be so casual.

Yeah I think so as well.
Its a tragedy that one day decides a wholes year's work. Its just so illogical. Its a day where many if not all(like at Lone Star) of the horses haven't run on that surface and have to ship to race. Many, if not most, horses will not run their "A" race that day. Every year you see horses who are very talented sputtering away on the track. East Coast horses have next to no chance on the hard speed favoring Cali surfaces. And the last time it was at Gulfstream, well if you didn't make the lead or sit near it, you couldnt win. One closer won that day, Anees, and thats only because everyonee knew about the bias by then and they engaged in a torrid duel across the track that exhausted all of em.
You can't decide a whole year's work on one day at a track where many have never run and have to ship in. It should be a tie breaker, if horses are close the rest of the year. The way it is now, its the other way around. Completely illogical.

Mineshaft's Eclipse was the exception to the rule. His dominance was not ignored.

Originally Posted by Bold Reasoning

Mineshaft's Eclipse was the exception to the rule. His dominance was not ignored.

Only because they were bright enough to pass it and it worked out ok. Had Medag or Congaree won that day instead of dueling each other, they woulda beat him.
Thats a great example of why the voting is screwed up. Farish/Howard had two choices, and neither was attractive. They could go there and hope to be one of the incredibly few dirt horses to ship in there and run well, or they could pass and hope that a horse won the classic who couldnt unseat him.
Fact is he shoulda been champ regardless of how he did that day. As a result, he didnt run and fans were denied from seeing him again.
Same sort of think happened with Azeri in 2004 and that one should really burn fan's butts. Azeri and Sightseek were locked in a tight duel for the eclipse. Sight was retired before the cup. Now Azeri's people had a problem, if she ran in the distaff and lost, she could lose the vote. If she didn't run at all, she had to sweat out a close vote. So they chose plan c, run her in the classic where she had no chance!!! That way they could claim after the race that they had taken a hard shot and should not be penalized, but couldnt be accused of skipping BC day and being afraid to compete.
Sad part is that their strategy worked.

[Gander]

This year's horse of the year will be decided in the BC, as it should. Down to 3 possible contenders: Lava Man, Bernardini and Invasor. Right now all 3 are likely to ship to Churchill after their next prep.

If we get all 3 of these horses in that race, it would be something of a miracle, lets keep our fingers crossed. May the best horse win.

Originally Posted by Gander

This year's horse of the year will be decided in the BC, as it should. Down to 3 possible contenders: Lava Man, Bernardini and Invasor. Right now all 3 are likely to ship to Churchill after their next prep.

If we get all 3 of these horses in that race, it would be something of a miracle, lets keep our fingers crossed. May the best horse win.

Tim are you saying that every championship should be decided in the BC? I disagree strongly. This year yes, because they havent met each other yet. But in most years its usually pretty clear who the best is in many divisons.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Bold Reasoning

Mineshaft's Eclipse was the exception to the rule. His dominance was not ignored.

I have never seen an HOY with a shorter list of vanquished quality horses. I cant think of one good horse Mineshaft ever beat that was in form.

Originally Posted by dalakhani

I have never seen an HOY with a shorter list of vanquished quality horses. I cant think of one good horse Mineshaft ever beat that was in form.

apparently you didnt pay your cable bill the years that Azeri and Favorite Trick won.

[Gander]

No I am with you guys on the BC should not define eclipse awards. Thats as silly as saying the team with the best record in the AL should play the team with the best record in the NL in 1 single game to decide the world champs, and do away with round of 5 and 7 game series in the playoffs.

I'm saying for this year, its actually going to work out. The horse out of those 3 who wins the Classic fully deserves to be HOY.

[Slewbopper]

Originally Posted by Bold Reasoning

Mineshaft's Eclipse was the exception to the rule. His dominance was not ignored.

Same with Holy Bull.

Taking nothing away from John Henry, who sat on the sidelines for the '84 BC, but Slew O Gold pretty much got screwed out of HOY after a brilliant campaign winning the Whitney, Marlboro, Woodward, and JCGC by losing a controversial Classic IN California. Had Wild Again been taken down, SOG would have been HOY. If I recall SOG and John were tied in the voting and some tie breaker was used to give John HOY

With Belmont the closest track to me, I truly miss the fall championship series. There used to actually be fans at Belmont on big days other than the Stakes prior to the BC. Anyway, BC day is the best day of racing all year, bar none.

Originally Posted by Slewbopper

Same with Holy Bull.

Taking nothing away from John Henry, who sat on the sidelines for the '84 BC, but Slew O Gold pretty much got screwed out of HOY after a brilliant campaign winning the Whitney, Marlboro, Woodward, and JCGC by losing a controversial Classic IN California. Had Wild Again been taken down, SOG would have been HOY. If I recall SOG and John were tied in the voting and some tie breaker was used to give John HOY

With Belmont the closest track to me, I truly miss the fall championship series. There used to actually be fans at Belmont on big days other than the Stakes prior to the BC. Anyway, BC day is the best day of racing all year, bar none.

Slewbopper,
I know that the Breeders Cup is here to stay, so the whole conversation/debate is moot. But I think its done more to harm racing than any other innovation in recent times.
The reason we can't generate a fan base that is consistent from June-February, is that we give people no reason to be fans.
People like rivalries, always have and always will. Baseball is a 162 game tedious and long season. Its hard to get worked up about any single game within that span. yet, when the Yankees and red sox play, people tune in. WHy? because of the rivalry of course.
College football is the same way.
In the good old days of my youth, rivalries existed because the only way to win a championship was to beat most of your opponents all year more times than they beat you.
The Breeders Cup was a great idea in theory. A year end celebration of racing that would move from place to place in order to expose more fans to racing.
But what its done is create a voting system for champions that ignores the rest of the years accomplishments and in the process has destroyed the stature of many races. Trainers no longer wanna hook up with the main rival in the year, they play dodgeball, and who can blame them? Its crippled the product all year long and I just don't think that one fantastic day is worth all that.

I was at Belmont in 2003 to see Mineshaft; I thought I was in an echo chamber. The attendance is sad; even a star like Mineshaft did not bring them in that day. I hope Bernardini does better, but I doubt it. The gamblers need only place a bet; they do not need to see the horses. It is a sad state of affairs.

[boswd]

Originally Posted by JJP

I agree with most of what Oracle says although the problem isn't in the Breeders Cup races themselves; its in the perception of those who vote for the Eclipse Awards. While the BC races should be a factor, they should not be the end-all for year end voting, IMO.

I also think it is the timing. Early Fall. I know they keep it that way so they can get as many tracks in the North in the rotation but if it we held in December I think you would see some of the big Grade I'ls get better fields. Although this year it seemed pretty decent. Whitney had 9 Pac classic had 8 Stephen Foster had 9 and I think the Pim Special had 8 or so. Not bad considering the past few years we were looking at 5 and 6 horse fields.