3/28 (GP): Florida Derby (G1); Swale (G2); Appleton (G3)

Kasept · #1 03-28-2009, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ELA

Pletcher was disappointed. He was interviewed right there, on the spot, that moment. With everything considered, and of course his horse got beat fairly easily as well, emotion is going to come into play. No matter how he got beat, he got beat and Pletcher would be disappointed. Easy to understand.

As far as the Derby goes, if they want to try and get in -- rushing, pushing the envelope, etc. -- if that's the price they want to pay, they will pay it.

Eric

Eric,

Does that also excuse his berating Gulfstream President Bill Murphy?

I guess this was the first 'big day' track Todd Pletcher ever ran horses on, so we should all sympathize.

They press any further with Dunkirk and they'll be no Dunkirk. He was already noticeably thin and wan...

justindew · #2 03-28-2009, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kasept

Eric,

Does that also excuse his berating Gulfstream President Bill Murphy?

I guess this was the first 'big day' track Todd Pletcher ever ran horses on, so we should all sympathize.

They press any further with Dunkirk and they'll be no Dunkirk. He was already noticeably thin and wan...

Steve, come on. Three track records? (Edit: or maybe just two)

However, if your analysis of him looking less than 100% is on the money, then I'd have to agree that pushing on is a bad decision. I had heard he looked like a million bucks.

Bigsmc · #3 03-29-2009, 06:51 AM

I haven't read all of the threads yet, but no love for Big Drama (so far)?

I thought that was pretty impressive off the layoff. Fawkes is doing some fine work with this horse.

Sightseek · #4 03-29-2009, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bigsmc

I haven't read all of the threads yet, but no love for Big Drama (so far)?

I thought that was pretty impressive off the layoff. Fawkes is doing some fine work with this horse.

I agree.

fpsoxfan · #5 03-29-2009, 08:21 AM

After reading through this thread, I went to espn.com and watch the race again. IMO the better horse won this race fair and square. Dunkirk made a huge move and Quality Road who rated nicely behind the speed just pulled away from him. Souped up track or not Quality Road is just a better horse at this point in time. I really don't understand how this track could've been unfair to Dunkirk. As far as Pletcher being a bit rude...whatever. It's like a coach blaming the refs/umps for losing a game. You're emotional/frustrated and later realize you shouldn't of said it. How about Jimmy Jerkens? It sure is nice to see him go to the big show.

ELA · #6 03-28-2009, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kasept

Eric,

Does that also excuse his berating Gulfstream President Bill Murphy?

I guess this was the first 'big day' track Todd Pletcher ever ran horses on, so we should all sympathize.

They press any further with Dunkirk and they'll be no Dunkirk. He was already noticeably thin and wan...

Also? Steve, I didn't defend what Pletcher said. It just didn't surprise me. In addition, I didn't say anyone should sympathize with Pletcher. I just think it's very easy to understand him being disappointed.

Pletcher's a big boy, playing in the big leagues and if someone in the media wants to "call him out" so to speak regarding these comments, they will. Were there some excuses here? Sure. Like I said, he was disappointed. His horse got beat. Period.

Eric

Kasept · #7 03-29-2009, 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ELA

Also? Steve, I didn't defend what Pletcher said. It just didn't surprise me. In addition, I didn't say anyone should sympathize with Pletcher. I just think it's very easy to understand him being disappointed.

Pletcher's a big boy, playing in the big leagues and if someone in the media wants to "call him out" so to speak regarding these comments, they will. Were there some excuses here? Sure. Like I said, he was disappointed. His horse got beat. Period.

Eric

His grousing was laughable. He's supposed to be the "ulimate professional horse trainer", and if that's the case, you acknowledge the winner and move on. During the 'vintage' Pletcher era, Dunkirk may have been ready to run a third big race in a relatively short time... Alas, those halcyon days are gone. The salad days as it were... Maybe DougS can pull the info up, but I'd guess that Pletcher has benefitted dozens of times from 'big day' racetracks when his horses would 're-break' at the top of the stretch and power away from fields. (Remember all those 4-5 winners that have largely disappeared from his shed?) Didn't hear him whine like a 4 year old about those surfaces.

ELA · #8 03-29-2009, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kasept

His grousing was laughable. He's supposed to be the "ulimate professional horse trainer", and if that's the case, you acknowledge the winner and move on. During the 'vintage' Pletcher era, Dunkirk may have been ready to run a third big race in a relatively short time... Alas, those halcyon days are gone. The salad days as it were... Maybe DougS can pull the info up, but I'd guess that Pletcher has benefitted dozens of times from 'big day' racetracks when his horses would 're-break' at the top of the stretch and power away from fields. (Remember all those 4-5 winners that have largely disappeared from his shed?) Didn't hear him whine like a 4 year old about those surfaces.

Perhaps I just don't hold Pletcher to the standards many others do. I expected him to make remarks like that. I would not have predicted the specific remarks, but they don't surprise me at all. I wouldn't think about it either way. There is no doubt that he has benefitted from the same circumstances -- but, the big difference? His horse got beat, so all bets are off so to speak. Why the surprise here?

For the most part I agree. I guess our reactions and the surprise factor is just different.

As far as "vintage" Pletcher, I don't know, yeah the dominance was there but there were also numerous other players ready to take the field. "Back in the day" -- would he/they have raced him back and looked to get into the Derby field? I don't know. I don't play the "what would they do" hypothetically game that well. It's far to hard in the claiming game, LOL.

Regardless, at this point it's all supposition.

Eric

Danzig · #9 03-29-2009, 07:38 AM

i think he could have expressed his obvious disappointment in a better way than pointing fingers at the surface. no doubt he was incredibly down, not only did he lose the fla derby, he pretty much lost the kentucky derby as well. if he really thought this horse could win THAT race, then the blow was far more serious than getting a second in a gr 1. but he played his hand-perhaps poorly? ultimately, he has to take the blame, he's the one who chose the venue-and chose not to run europe.

maybe the withers and then preakness?

Kasept · #10 03-29-2009, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Steve, I generally agree about the whining. And I absolutely agree that he doesn't say a word if he's training Quality Road instead of Dunkirk. Pletcher is better than that, but I can't help but think back to last year's Belmont. For weeks Dutrow provided countless soundbites and quotes for us all to discuss and/or mock. Big Brown flops in the Belmont and Dutrow is nowhere to be found. I know many, including myself criticized him for it.

Now, lets consider for a second that it was the heat of the moment yesterday. I would imagine it's taken all of the effort in the world to get this horse ready for a smasher yesterday (he doesn't appear the soundest of sorts). They knew this was the make it or break it and they fell a little short. Wouldn't you be upset? Maybe he took it out on the wrong people and he was more frustrated with the situation than anything. But, if he doesn't say a word to the media, I'm sure there are people criticizing that. If we want connections reactions immediately after a race, we should expect that the reactions aren't always going to be gracious. I'm not excusing the whine, I just understand why he did it.

I understand exactly why he did it. He's a snide and churlish guy. And it's even marginably excusable under duress... But he's the guy who wanted to build the Microsoft of racing operations, so don't be lashing out when you get a Vista result.

Kasept · #11 03-29-2009, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

That was a Vista result?

I guess I just get a chuckle out of people being outraged that someone reacted negatively to something like watching their chances of going to the Derby probably ended. I'll tell you one thing, I'm glad there isn't a camera on me when I lose a photo for a big score or get DQ'd. I'm sure we all are.

Who's outraged? I'm amused.

Kasept · #12 03-29-2009, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

I'll remember your amusement now when someone criticizes one of the "untouchable trainers" in the future.

Who's cornered the market on playing both sides of the fence better than you?

slotdirt · #13 03-29-2009, 10:31 AM

I seem to recall someone involved with Hossy's mystery horse galloping Easy Goer in the mornings, but I might be remembering that wrong.

Kasept · #14 03-29-2009, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

I seem to recall last year a horse with a similar situation as Dunkirk. He needed earnings and they chose to run the horse at a track that is generally biased towards early speed. The horse threw in a clunker and after the race the owner of said horse complained that the track wasn't fair. Now, to be fair, his comments were not intended to be made public, but they unfortunately were. Is there a difference here?

Pletcher, the most visable and most industry-promoted conditioner in the sport, is supposed to be gracious about the situation. Owners can say whatever they want for the most part. Some you appreciate and understand better than others. Jess Jackson is a good example. He says ridiculous things about Curlin's legacy, and you nod and say "uh huh" because he knows nothing about the history of the sport.

philcski · #15 03-29-2009, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Steve, I generally agree about the whining. And I absolutely agree that he doesn't say a word if he's training Quality Road instead of Dunkirk. Pletcher is better than that, but I can't help but think back to last year's Belmont. For weeks Dutrow provided countless soundbites and quotes for us all to discuss and/or mock. Big Brown flops in the Belmont and Dutrow is nowhere to be found. I know many, including myself criticized him for it.

Now, lets consider for a second that it was the heat of the moment yesterday. I would imagine it's taken all of the effort in the world to get this horse ready for a smasher yesterday (he doesn't appear the soundest of sorts). They knew this was the make it or break it and they fell a little short. Wouldn't you be upset? Maybe he took it out on the wrong people and he was more frustrated with the situation than anything. But, if he doesn't say a word to the media, I'm sure there are people criticizing that. If we want connections reactions immediately after a race, we should expect that the reactions aren't always going to be gracious. I'm not excusing the whine, I just understand why he did it.

Dutrow's only excuse after the Belmont was "no excuse". He went to the barn and sulked by himself. Initially he took a shot at Desormeaux but later retracted. I have no problem with that, I'd rather hear that than "Mr. Microsoft" blaming the track superintendent when the truth was he got run off his feet by a BETTER HORSE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kasept

I understand exactly why he did it. He's a snide and churlish guy. And it's even marginably excusable under duress... But he's the guy who wanted to build the Microsoft of racing operations, so don't be lashing out when you get a Vista result.

This might be your all time best analogy- I laughed

philcski · #16 03-29-2009, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Run off his feet? I must have watched a different race. One more time, I'm not excusing the whining. I think it was poor judgement on his part. But, he was right and he was frustrated in the heat of the moment. Don't we all say things we regret during those times, right or wrong?

Actually I just saw the ESPN feed for the first time, versus the paraphrased comments in the DRF, etc. What Pletcher said wasn't as damning as I had understood them to be, he did praise Quality Road for one. No question he was dejected and searching for something with a microphone in his face.

Additionally, I caution everyone to be careful to automatically stamp the track as biased. EVERY SINGLE horse that won on or near the lead figured prominently- either the favorite or 2nd choice. Truly cheap speed did quit as expected- see Vitruvius' race as well as Casey's On Call. We all love to see the Silky Sullivan-type late rallies but the fact is having a pace advantage means a lot in this game. It's certainly OK to put a question mark next to all of the performances today but I wouldn't be surprised to find out later that the track was indeed fairer than people are crediting it to be.

NTamm1215 · #17 03-29-2009, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by philcski

Actually I just saw the ESPN feed for the first time, versus the paraphrased comments in the DRF, etc. What Pletcher said wasn't as damning as I had understood them to be, he did praise Quality Road for one. No question he was dejected and searching for something with a microphone in his face.

Additionally, I caution everyone to be careful to automatically stamp the track as biased. EVERY SINGLE horse that won on or near the lead figured prominently- either the favorite or 2nd choice. Truly cheap speed did quit as expected- see Vitruvius' race as well as Casey's On Call. We all love to see the Silky Sullivan-type late rallies but the fact is having a pace advantage means a lot in this game. It's certainly OK to put a question mark next to all of the performances today but I wouldn't be surprised to find out later that the track was indeed fairer than people are crediting it to be.

Very well said, Phil, and this was the first thing I noticed going back thru the charts and replays yesterday. Even the nightcap was formful with the 3rd place finisher arguably winning handily with a better ride.

Pletcher made remarks about a souped up track, which sure it may have been souped up, but souped up doesn't equal speed-favoring or biased.

NT

justindew · #18 03-29-2009, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

Very well said, Phil, and this was the first thing I noticed going back thru the charts and replays yesterday. Even the nightcap was formful with the 3rd place finisher arguably winning handily with a better ride.

Pletcher made remarks about a souped up track, which sure it may have been souped up, but souped up doesn't equal speed-favoring or biased.

NT

I think this is a fair point, but really, would Quality Road have been able to "re-break" like that after those fractions on a normal GP surface?

Bobby Fischer · #19 03-29-2009, 09:27 AM

that track couldn't have been much better for a speed horse

there shouldn't be any debate about that. It was fast and horses were lasting.

Did they soup it up for Saturday? No. It was this bad on Friday. I didn't even check Wed or Thurs...

Quality Road ran a huge race and won. There is nothing whatsoever to take away from him. You can come up with fantasy tracks and fantasy trips, but you have to give credit to the horse who ran the actual race, when they run so great.
Dunkirk ran a huge race and happened to lose. He had to make a sustained move to tackle maybe the best rival, after that one had a dream trip and dream track, and he only lost by a couple lengths. What a great race that was.

The top two IMO both had the best 1 1/16th+ dirt preps we've had this year.
I don't know that I Want Revenge or Friesan Fire could have beaten them on a mythical "fair track".

Scav · #20 03-28-2009, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Was it really a surprise the track was like that? When is a track not souped up on a big day? But, I wouldn't focus on the "track records" too much. Aren't the new records only since the track was reconfigured? So we are only looking at a few years worth of races to compare. But, also aren't a majority of track records more an indication of the track, then who is doing the running?

Exactly