ahh..the good ole days..

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by miraja2

What exactly are you basing this statement on?

If there were better methods available then why exactly havent we heard about them? I have heard plenty about the negatives yet I dont ever hear any alternatives? If there are more effective methods available why arent these being promoted as well?

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

If there were better methods available then why exactly havent we heard about them? I have heard plenty about the negatives yet I dont ever hear any alternatives? If there are more effective methods available why arent these being promoted as well?

So THIS is the evidence you have to support your assertion that torture has "worked pretty well for thousands of years."

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by miraja2

So THIS is the evidence you have to support your assertion that torture has "worked pretty well for thousands of years."

Once again I ask you what methods are better? Maybe torture isnt the ideal way of obtaining information but i have yet to see anyone give an better example? And again if there are more effective methods why is torture still used so widely throughout the world?

[hi_im_god]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

If there were better methods available then why exactly havent we heard about them? I have heard plenty about the negatives yet I dont ever hear any alternatives? If there are more effective methods available why arent these being promoted as well?

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200506/budiansky


"Since the prison scandals broke, many old hands in the business have pointed out that abusing prisoners is not simply illegal and immoral; it is also remarkably ineffective."

"The torture of suspects [at Abu Ghraib] did not lead to any useful intelligence information being extracted," says James Corum, a professor at the U.S. Army Command and General Staff College and the author of a forthcoming book on counterinsurgency warfare. "The abusers couldn't even use the old 'ends justify the means' argument, because in the end there was nothing to show but a tremendous propaganda defeat for the United States."

Corum, who recently retired as a lieutenant colonel after twenty-eight years in the Army and Reserves, mostly in military intelligence, says that Moran's philosophy has repeatedly been affirmed in subsequent wars large and small. "Know their language, know their culture, and treat the captured enemy as a human being" is how Corum sums up Moran's enduring lesson."

[Antitrust32]

honestly, I could care less whether we torture terrorists or not. I think we should get as much info out of terrorists as we can...

They are people who all they care about is killing us.

Do you think if they captured our soldiers or workers over there (which they do) they think "Oh, well it may be unethical to torture this guy... so we'll just not do it" HELL NO... they behead you on camera and then post it online and on TV.

I was very upset at CNN and the other news outlets for all the publicity they give to Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo Bay. All they are doing is feeding the Middle Eastern Terrorists more fuel for the fire. There were a lot of contractors kidnapped and beheaded over there when the Abu Ghraib situation was in the news all the time. I think it was shameful for the news outlets to make US out to be the bad guys. Anti-America propaganda used to make the world hate us a little more.

[hi_im_god]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

honestly, I could care less whether we torture terrorists or not. I think we should get as much info out of terrorists as we can...

They are people who all they care about is killing us.

Do you think if they captured our soldiers or workers over there (which they do) they think "Oh, well it may be unethical to torture this guy... so we'll just not do it" HELL NO... they behead you on camera and then post it online and on TV.

I was very upset at CNN and the other news outlets for all the publicity they give to Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo Bay. All they are doing is feeding the Middle Eastern Terrorists more fuel for the fire. There were a lot of contractors kidnapped and beheaded over there when the Abu Ghraib situation was in the news all the time. I think it was shameful for the news outlets to make US out to be the bad guys. Anti-America propaganda used to make the world hate us a little more.

i agree.

which is why we should use effective methods.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by hi_im_god

i agree.

which is why we should use effective methods.

name one

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

name one

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...112802242.html

Please read this. I'm begging you.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...112802242.html

Please read this. I'm begging you.

Joey it is another guy selling a book making claims that we have no idea are true or not. I would ask him if the prisoners hated Al Queda so much then it shouldnt have taken much torture to get info out of them should it?

I am not an interrogation expert and i am not saying that other methods shouldnt be used first. But outlawing it and making this such a public fight gives strength to the enemy which knows that they wont be subjected to torture. They can just hold out until we let them go.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

honestly, I could care less whether we torture terrorists or not. I think we should get as much info out of terrorists as we can...

They are people who all they care about is killing us.

Do you think if they captured our soldiers or workers over there (which they do) they think "Oh, well it may be unethical to torture this guy... so we'll just not do it" HELL NO... they behead you on camera and then post it online and on TV.

I was very upset at CNN and the other news outlets for all the publicity they give to Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo Bay. All they are doing is feeding the Middle Eastern Terrorists more fuel for the fire. There were a lot of contractors kidnapped and beheaded over there when the Abu Ghraib situation was in the news all the time. I think it was shameful for the news outlets to make US out to be the bad guys. Anti-America propaganda used to make the world hate us a little more.

i think so too...
by the same token, we can't torture prisoners and then take offense when they treat our men and women in a similar manner. that is not to say that we should put enemy combatants up in a hilton garden inn either.

[dellinger63]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i think so too...
by the same token, we can't torture prisoners and then take offense when they treat our men and women in a similar manner. that is not to say that we should put enemy combatants up in a hilton garden inn either.

treat in a similar manner? LMAO we cutting heads off? or hanging them off bridges and setting them on fire? Didn't think so.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by dellinger63

treat in a similar manner? LMAO we cutting heads off? or hanging them off bridges and setting them on fire? Didn't think so.

i just read yesterday about a case against one of our own soldiers for blindfolding and then shooting four iraqis in the head. so, no, not a beheading-but certainly in a similar vein. glad you find it all so amusing.

[dellinger63]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i just read yesterday about a case against one of our own soldiers for blindfolding and then shooting four iraqis in the head. so, no, not a beheading-but certainly in a similar vein. glad you find it all so amusing.

I'm sure he'll be treated like a hero similar to how they treat theirs? And somehow I missed that story. A link would be helpful. Thanks

[Danzig]

i just want to be very clear here. i don't think we are 'just like them' or acting 'just like them'. and i want it to stay that way. i get that war is hell, i understand we must take care of ourselves first. but we don't need to cross a fine line, where we become almost like what we're fighting-and try to justify it by saying we're the ones wearing the white hats here.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i think so too...
by the same token, we can't torture prisoners and then take offense when they treat our men and women in a similar manner. that is not to say that we should put enemy combatants up in a hilton garden inn either.

LOL we are nothing like them.

If they treated us in a similar manner... we wouldnt be at war to begin with. I dont think ANY United States citizens would have been flying airplanes into buildings in Pakistan or Afghanistan.

I wish they treated our soldiers in a similar manner.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

LOL we are nothing like them.

If they treated us in a similar manner... we wouldnt be at war to begin with. I dont think ANY United States citizens would have been flying airplanes into buildings in Pakistan or Afghanistan.

I wish they treated our soldiers in a similar manner.

you do know that we staged a ground attack,inside pakistan,last fall? without their govt's knowledge or permissions beforehand? that 20 civilians were killed?
certainly not an attack like we experienced, but that's one hell of a way to treat our supposed allies. i'm sure we garnered good will from their populace by doing that. no doubt they're falling over themselves to give us more of a hand with our war on terror.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Danzig

you do know that we staged a ground attack,inside pakistan,last fall? without their govt's knowledge or permissions beforehand? that 20 civilians were killed?
certainly not an attack like we experienced, but that's one hell of a way to treat our supposed allies. i'm sure we garnered good will from their populace by doing that. no doubt they're falling over themselves to give us more of a hand with our war on terror.

We are going after Al Queda members who live in Pakistan. Obama has been doing that ever since he was elected. It is where the fighting should have been in the first place. Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Pakistan has really done wonders for the war on terror considering most of Al Queda stays in the mountains of the Pakistan, and Pakistan just allowed the Taliban to govern an area of the country.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Danzig

you do know that we staged a ground attack,inside pakistan,last fall? without their govt's knowledge or permissions beforehand? that 20 civilians were killed?
certainly not an attack like we experienced, but that's one hell of a way to treat our supposed allies. i'm sure we garnered good will from their populace by doing that. no doubt they're falling over themselves to give us more of a hand with our war on terror.

And you know without a doubt that
1. The Paki govt did not know
2. that the civilians killed were killed by americans or even were civilians?
3. The population isnt going to be against us regardless of what we do?
4. The billions of aid we give them isnt enough?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i think so too...
by the same token, we can't torture prisoners and then take offense when they treat our men and women in a similar manner. that is not to say that we should put enemy combatants up in a hilton garden inn either.

It is naive to think that the treatment of our men and woman has anything to do with the treatment of their prisoners. Actually it is frighteningly naive.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

It is naive to think that the treatment of our men and woman has anything to do with the treatment of their prisoners. Actually it is frighteningly naive.

not saying it's tit for tat; also don't believe that if we treat their prisoners well, that they will reply in kind. what i am saying is that we don't need to be breaking any of our own laws while fighting terrorism.